Hyperion Dead?

[Phantasm]

In my opinion business is business and I think the ones who really love the Amiga are the Devs so I support them.

[sean_sk]

Originally Posted by jbenam

They’re evil because they don’t pay their employees.

Telling some people to do work for free isn’t “moving anything forward” and I am speechless that you think that’s the case.

I think you forgot to read the interview with Camilla Boemann in which she said the following:

"We are not paid, and that is how we explicitly want it to be. While AmigaOS is a huge success the Amiga market is not big enough to pay us more than pocket money anyway. Internally, it would also mean we would have to argue over how much we should each get paid. And we would suddenly be obliged to actually produce something. Right now, we can work all weekend, or do nothing at all for months. No one is yelling at us. We work on it when we have time and when we feel it is fun."

They volunteered to work for free and that's how they want it.

[pixie]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

In my opinion business is business and I think the ones who really love the Amiga are the Devs so I support them.

How do you support someone who isn't even being paid?

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by jbenam

Still better than Hyperion. At least they pay their employees.

Do they pay their developers? Well, I received my free copy of Amiga Forever, but I did not receive payment. Does Cloanto have employees? And if so, what for? For selling the next copy of Amiga Forever, the same stuff as always?

Originally Posted by jbenam

Well, no. They’re evil because they don’t pay their employees.

I wasn't aware that I was ever employed by them. Neither am I employed by iComp, nor Cloanto.

Originally Posted by jbenam

Their plan was just to sell a dead end system for hundreds of euros, none of which went to the devs - well, they must be certainly called heroes, then!

Actually, I wasn't aware that AmigaOs 3.2 was *that* expensive. It was actually sold for tenths of euros. Around three tenths of Euros, from what I know. (-; And, despite, it is surely not "dead" as it is being developed, that is the contrary of "dead".

Originally Posted by jbenam

Telling some people to do work for free isn’t “moving anything forward” and I am speechless that you think that’s the case.

I think that this is the case, and I would be happy if you would be speechless. (-:

Originally Posted by jbenam

What I wanted was for you guys to get paid. How naive of me.

Indeed, if you believe that Cloanto would. Frankly, look at the "market" we have. The user base is probably ~10000 people. How can you derive from that a steady income of funding permanent employees of a company? The money is instead wasted in useless court cases instead of cooperation - and it always takes two persons for a struggle. I'm not pointing fingers, but if you believe that any of the two is "innocent", you are indeed a bit naive.

Originally Posted by jbenam

I love what you guys did for 3.1.4 and 3.2, but your work should be recognised, in form of credit and payment. You didn’t get either.

I got my share of fun, thank you. I never asked for more.

Originally Posted by jbenam

Very sorry to hear that, what haven’t they paid you for?

Look what's on Amiga Forever. Last time I checked it contained a good subset of the programs I put into Aminet. If I recall, ViNCEd, the mmulib, the IoTools and many other things were there. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with that, that's all ok, I didn't expect anything. My license even says so. But I wasn't paid either. If you compare how "dead" AmigaForever is compared to how "dead" AmigaOs 3.2 is... well, my pick is rather clear.

Originally Posted by jbenam

BTW don’t get me started on the “our economic system” thing, because that’s not a sane state of things, and it shouldn’t be used an excuse for such behaviour either.

The "excuse" is that we don't have a sufficiently large market to sustain the system. Or to put it in different terms: The income is barely sufficient to pay the overhead of publication. Of course, if you invest nothing (like Cloanto) you get a larger share as there is also less overhead. Look, I for my part have my daily income, what I do for Amiga is after-hour hobby work. That's ok for me. Assuming that Amiga could pay my daily needs would be, indeed, very naive.


I do not know which alternative you suggest to our system, but in the end, someone has to support me, but there is not sufficient interest in Amiga to make that a viable option. My money comes from other sources, and I'm perfectly happy if you continue to pay AAC encoded music or anything else related to video or audio coding, because *that* brings in the money into our institute and by that into my pockets - and I'm also happy to be part of it.

[sean_sk]

Originally Posted by pixie

How do you support someone who isn't even being paid?

One way, by giving them feedback, and letting them know you appreciate their work. I know that would motivate me to continue working.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by jbenam

Glad I made the right choice back then and I am now even happier to not have supported these evil scheming fools after reading what they’ve done to poor Cloanto. It’s time to finally give Amiga rights back in the hands of someone who cares and that’s not in just for the money.

Is this one of these moments when somebody forgets to add /s to their post ?

[number6]

Originally Posted by sean_sk

I think you forgot to read the interview with Camilla Boemann in which she said the following:

"We are not paid, and that is how we explicitly want it to be. While AmigaOS is a huge success the Amiga market is not big enough to pay us more than pocket money anyway. Internally, it would also mean we would have to argue over how much we should each get paid. And we would suddenly be obliged to actually produce something. Right now, we can work all weekend, or do nothing at all for months. No one is yelling at us. We work on it when we have time and when we feel it is fun."

They volunteered to work for free and that's how they want it.

Given that Cloanto/Amiga Corporation stated in regard to a prior settlement attempt:

"If Hyperion wants to release it as a free update, Amiga has no objection, but Hyperion can't exceed its rights AND profit from it."

Ergo this stance works for the 3.x team from multiple standpoints.

Just to clarify if the above is not obvious:
If the above settlement had succeeded then there would be no proceeds for Hyperion to pay the devs with anyway.
Therefore the result of "working for free" becomes a moot point.

Additional detail, since some seem unaware of this event. This was indeed cleared by attorney for posting by Amiga Corporation on May 28, 2021:

"Timothy De Groote and Mike Battilana negotiated a settlement agreement that was agreed to by Ben Hermans in writing on January 20, 2021. (He also represented this to the Court.) Eleven days later, he reneged."

and

"Under the agreement Ben Hermans reneged on, Amiga would have granted Hyperion the right (which it currently doesn't have) to release AmigaOS 3.2. If Hyperion wants to release it as a free update, Amiga has no objection, but Hyperion can't exceed its rights AND profit from it."

The attorney was Eric Harrison, who resigned shortly thereafter:
Reference post from June, 2021

#6

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by pixie

How do you support someone who isn't even being paid?

By building my own software that utilises their OS and by contributing to their work however I can. I did also purchase OS 3.2 which you don't seem to see as supporting them (which it isn't financially) but I still see it as supporting them.

[Minuous]

Originally Posted by jbenam

Cloanto has genuine love for the Amiga (and has shown it standing by the Amiga during the “dark years” when it wasn’t profitable in the slightest), while these leeches never had anything to do with it until they got word of the fact that a very vocal niche was ready to spend hundreds of euros on stuff labeled “Amiga”.

Actually, Cloanto abandoned development of their programs and sold off their rights in the '90. And I am quite confident that they have made a fat profit off Amiga Forever for each and every year of its existence, after all they have done practically no development of it.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

Actually, Cloanto abandoned development of their programs and sold off their rights in the '90. And I am quite confident that they have made a fat profit off Amiga Forever for each and every year of its existence, after all they have done practically no development of it.

As far as I know cloanto donated money, f.e. to support development of the aros roms. The MorphOS team also published source changes. What exactly did Hyperion and/or Ben H. except trying to earn money? Some do not like Cloanto. Fine. But that does not make Hyperion or Ben H. to a white knight. And regarding unpaid development on amigaos to the benefit of someone else, I do not understand it. But the people active there knew that before they signed the NDAs. I have to respect that.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

What exactly did Hyperion and/or Ben H. except trying to earn money? Some do not like Cloanto. Fine. But that does not make Hyperion or Ben H. to a white knight.

I really doubt anyone believes that, either. (-; It would be as far from the truth as Cloanto showing "true Amiga Love". For records, Hyperion paid for the ClassAct sources such that the "reaction" classes could be worked on, improved and shipped with 3.2. (It's really "ClassAct" and not "reaction", but the latter name stuck).



In the end, everyone attempts to earn some money here. For me, that's ok, and I believe that a system also requires some commercial vendors.

[qz3fwd]

Both companies seem to be douchebags. The Amiga really is sad considering 20 years later people are fighting over the dead carcass rotting before them as many many people won’t touch Amiga because of these legal problems. Too bad we cannot just flush both Hyperion and Cloanto down the toilet. The world would be better without either of their problems. It really is sad.

[Pyromania]

[ Show youtube player ]

[TCD]

Originally Posted by qz3fwd

Both companies seem to be douchebags. The Amiga really is sad considering 20 years later people are fighting over the dead carcass rotting before them as many many people won’t touch Amiga because of these legal problems. Too bad we cannot just flush both Hyperion and Cloanto down the toilet. The world would be better without either of their problems. It really is sad.

Indeed. In my opinion part of the problem is that notion that the Amiga never 'reallly' died. Even with Hyperion and Cloanto gone I'm sure somebody else would try to get the rights to sell us a new Amiga microwave that you can play Zool on.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by TCD

Indeed. In my opinion part of the problem is that notion that the Amiga never 'reallly' died. Even with Hyperion and Cloanto gone I'm sure somebody else would try to get the rights to sell us a new Amiga microwave that you can play Zool on.

They could try, but I doubt they would get very far.

IMO the problem is the same as it ever was, Amiga fans not appreciating what they get. By rights Amiga OS should have died 20 years ago, since it has no commercial value to speak of. The fact that it is still being developed and sold in commercial shops like the Amiga products of old is awesome. It's like being back in the 90's but better! But some people are hell-bent on jinxing that miracle in favor of punishing those they have decided are 'douchebags'.

My own policy on stuff I create is anyone can do whatever they like with it - make a million bucks and don't give me a dime I don't care. I'd actually rather not take money for it since then I would have some responsibility. And I can totally see why other developers might think the same. The only reward we want is seeing it out there with people enjoying it. People who purport to be fighting for developers should consider the possibility that they themselves are indulging in 'douchebaggery'.

[pixie]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

By building my own software that utilises their OS and by contributing to their work however I can. I did also purchase OS 3.2 which you don't seem to see as supporting them (which it isn't financially) but I still see it as supporting them.

The only one you're supporting is Hyperion and their shady tactics! I would never spend money on a product if its developers were not to be compensated. I do not say that their work isn't worth it, I say Hyperion's work isn't worth it.

If you think that's a viable business model, more power to you.

[sean_sk]

Originally Posted by pixie

The only one you're supporting is Hyperion and their shady tactics! I would never spend money on a product if its developers were not to be compensated. I do not say that their work isn't worth it, I say Hyperion's work isn't worth it.

If you think that's a viable business model, more power to you.

If everyone were to refuse to pay for it then Hyperion would shut the project down. Then the developers would no longer have access to the code and then there would be no more updates.

[jbenam]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Do they pay their developers? Well, I received my free copy of Amiga Forever, but I did not receive payment. Does Cloanto have employees? And if so, what for? For selling the next copy of Amiga Forever, the same stuff as always?

They also sell other stuff, and I guess they have paid employees for those products.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

I wasn't aware that I was ever employed by them. Neither am I employed by iComp, nor Cloanto.

Did you do developer work for them? What you reported below doesn’t count as such.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Actually, I wasn't aware that AmigaOs 3.2 was *that* expensive. It was actually sold for tenths of euros. Around three tenths of Euros, from what I know. (-; And, despite, it is surely not "dead" as it is being developed, that is the contrary of "dead".

I was obviously talking respectively about total sales and AmigaOS4/PPC. Not sure if it’s a comprehension problem here or if you’re just trying to put me in a bad light.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

I think that this is the case, and I would be happy if you would be speechless. (-:

Sorry but if you really want to do things for free then don’t ask for payment for your product. AmigaOS3.2 could’ve been closed source AND distributed for free. That would’ve made the dev team AND the users happy. What a world would that be.

Good thing we’re in a democracy here and you can’t just silence people you don’t agree with - especially if they make good points :-)

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Indeed, if you believe that Cloanto would. Frankly, look at the "market" we have. The user base is probably ~10000 people. How can you derive from that a steady income of funding permanent employees of a company? The money is instead wasted in useless court cases instead of cooperation - and it always takes two persons for a struggle. I'm not pointing fingers, but if you believe that any of the two is "innocent", you are indeed a bit naive.

If there’s enough money in this to fund multi-year lawsuits then you’re naively (or maybe maliciously?) downplaying the amount of money derived from AmigaOS sales. Where there are hundreds of thousands of euros for lawsuits there’s enough money for wages.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

I got my share of fun, thank you. I never asked for more.

Good for you, I am sure there are plenty of devs that would prefer to be paid and/or not under a very restrictive NDA.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Look what's on Amiga Forever. Last time I checked it contained a good subset of the programs I put into Aminet. If I recall, ViNCEd, the mmulib, the IoTools and many other things were there. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with that, that's all ok, I didn't expect anything. My license even says so. But I wasn't paid either. If you compare how "dead" AmigaForever is compared to how "dead" AmigaOs 3.2 is... well, my pick is rather clear.

Sorry, if you put stuff for free on Aminet you can’t really blame Cloanto for this. It looks like you’re trying to paint them in a bad light on purpose. Do you have some veiled interests in Hyperion and/or A-EON? Maybe shares?

Again, AmigaOS3.2 isn’t the dead-end, AmigaOS4 is and I was very clear in that, try to not subvert my posts to fit your agenda.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

The "excuse" is that we don't have a sufficiently large market to sustain the system. Or to put it in different terms: The income is barely sufficient to pay the overhead of publication. Of course, if you invest nothing (like Cloanto) you get a larger share as there is also less overhead. Look, I for my part have my daily income, what I do for Amiga is after-hour hobby work. That's ok for me. Assuming that Amiga could pay my daily needs would be, indeed, very naive.

Oh trust me, there is. Otherwise Amigakit wouldn’t have paid employees. That’s okay for you, great, but don’t assume that it’s okay for everyone else.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

I do not know which alternative you suggest to our system, but in the end, someone has to support me, but there is not sufficient interest in Amiga to make that a viable option. My money comes from other sources, and I'm perfectly happy if you continue to pay AAC encoded music or anything else related to video or audio coding, because *that* brings in the money into our institute and by that into my pockets - and I'm also happy to be part of it.

Or maybe if some companies that won’t be named didn’t hoard all the profits you would have a bit of more money in your pocket at the end of the month. Full-time Amiga dev work is a pipe dream and that’s for granted. But that’s not an excuse to not pay developers. I can’t see why you’re so adamant in justifying Hyperion in their behaviour. Like I said earlier, it seems you have some vested interest in defending them.

Originally Posted by sean_sk

I think you forgot to read the interview with Camilla Boemann in which she said the following:

"We are not paid, and that is how we explicitly want it to be. While AmigaOS is a huge success the Amiga market is not big enough to pay us more than pocket money anyway. Internally, it would also mean we would have to argue over how much we should each get paid. And we would suddenly be obliged to actually produce something. Right now, we can work all weekend, or do nothing at all for months. No one is yelling at us. We work on it when we have time and when we feel it is fun."

They volunteered to work for free and that's how they want it.

Erm I didn’t “forget”, I just don’t have the time these days to read the entirety of daily posts on EAB

I am glad that Camilla feels that way, but I am sure there are other devs that don’t share her view of AmigaOS development.

On the other hand, it would just be fair if the system was published for free. No obligations for the devs and no profits for anyone else, while the users benefit. Oh what a utopia that would be.

Originally Posted by number6

"Under the agreement Ben Hermans reneged on, Amiga would have granted Hyperion the right (which it currently doesn't have) to release AmigaOS 3.2. If Hyperion wants to release it as a free update, Amiga has no objection, but Hyperion can't exceed its rights AND profit from it."

Which is exactly what I have always been proposing. Let the devs work on it for free, but don’t let Hyperion profit from it. It’s just fair to everyone involved. Things like these make me think that Cloanto is the lesser evil compared to Hyperion.

Originally Posted by OlafSch

As far as I know cloanto donated money, f.e. to support development of the aros roms. The MorphOS team also published source changes. What exactly did Hyperion and/or Ben H. except trying to earn money? Some do not like Cloanto. Fine. But that does not make Hyperion or Ben H. to a white knight. And regarding unpaid development on amigaos to the benefit of someone else, I do not understand it. But the people active there knew that before they signed the NDAs. I have to respect that.

Thank you Olaf for being a decent human being and not just throw crap at Cloanto like everyone does.

Originally Posted by sean_sk

If everyone were to refuse to pay for it then Hyperion would shut the project down. Then the developers would no longer have access to the code and then there would be no more updates.

That’s not the case - Cloanto promised to open-source AmigaOS if they ever get the rights to it. Then devs could continue their work unimpeded. Instead they’re blocked by Hyperion and their buddies A-EON as opensourcing AmigaOS would remove profits from their pockets.

[pixie]

Originally Posted by sean_sk

If everyone were to refuse to pay for it then Hyperion would shut the project down. Then the developers would no longer have access to the code and then there would be no more updates.

So it seems like hostages to me... perhaps other solutions would arise, because you can you see only that path as the only one possible, doesn't make it so.

In the end you think you're only worth of scraps... I think their work should be valued.

[pixie]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Of course, if you invest nothing (like Cloanto) you get a larger share as there is also less overhead.

If that is to be the case Hyperion should have had invest nothing first (buying Amiga Inc and its assets), it would be the most pragmatic to do, and economic wise it would make the most sense, as long we play by the 'invest nothing' pov, that is...

Hyperion is that tenant that decides that he might do whatever it please with the house of his landlord, and people just go with it.