New Amiga Hardware?

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

Just seems to me that all you see is out of stock on all websites selling Individual Computers hardware. Loads of demand, just no hardware.

Define "Loads of demand"? 50? 100? 1,000? In such a small community it's very easy for a small number of people to make a large amount of noise. We don't know the economics behind it, but perhaps there isn't actually enough demand. What if it is only 100 people constantly asking for a new Indivision, for example, and to make it worthwhile, a minimum of 500 units need to be ordered? Then you're down the cost of 400 units which sit in boxes in a warehouse somewhere. Suddenly the massive demand has dried up, since those 100 people now have their product and all is quiet again.

OK, so it has to be worth while but let's face it, Individual must of known the Amiga market was never going to be massive, so why not supply what demand there is?

Perhaps it's for the reasons above. Maybe they estimated a potential market of 500 units the first time around. They built 500, tested them, and then sold them over a matter of months. Now you have those 100 people who are also looking for the product, creating the impression of loads of demand. What happens then? Make another batch of 500, but risk having all the product's profits tied up in a warehouse? Or make a batch of 100, increasing the price to compensate for the smaller manufacturing run? The first option is a nightmare for manufacturers and is to be avoided, which can be tricky in a small market. The second option isn't very appealing either as half the 100 customers change their mind because of the price hike and don't buy it after all, and the community in general create a stink about profiteering and price gouging, even if they had no intention of ever buying that product. You could of course absorb the increased manufacturing cost yourself, reducing your profits on the second batch, but that hardly makes business sense unless you're selling in large volumes.

This is all speculation of course as we don't know the economics behind it, but the logic is fairly sound for any sort of manufactured product.

Oh, and sorry, I don't normally do this either, but similar to clebin's point: "must of"?

[plasmab]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Define "Loads of demand"? 50? 100? 1,000? In such a small community it's very easy for a small number of people to make a large amount of noise. We don't know the economics behind it, but perhaps there isn't actually enough demand. What if it is only 100 people constantly asking for a new Indivision, for example, and to make it worthwhile, a minimum of 500 units need to be ordered? Then you're down the cost of 400 units which sit in boxes in a warehouse somewhere. Suddenly the massive demand has dried up, since those 100 people now have their product and all is quiet again.



Perhaps it's for the reasons above. Maybe they estimated a potential market of 500 units the first time around. They built 500, tested them, and then sold them over a matter of months. Now you have those 100 people who are also looking for the product, creating the impression of loads of demand. What happens then? Make another batch of 500, but risk having all the product's profits tied up in a warehouse? Or make a batch of 100, increasing the price to compensate for the smaller manufacturing run? The first option is a nightmare for manufacturers and is to be avoided, which can be tricky in a small market. The second option isn't very appealing either as half the 100 customers change their mind because of the price hike and don't buy it after all, and the community in general create a stink about profiteering and price gouging, even if they had no intention of ever buying that product. You could of course absorb the increased manufacturing cost yourself, reducing your profits on the second batch, but that hardly makes business sense unless you're selling in large volumes.

This is all speculation of course as we don't know the economics behind it, but the logic is fairly sound for any sort of manufactured product.

Oh, and sorry, I don't normally do this either, but similar to clebin's point: "must of"?

Yes! I constantly get asked to sell things to people for less than cost because people think the price is too high. I developed the open source + community led building model because it means there will always be product those able to supply the demand without the expense of an expensive run.

I do what i can to make sure my stuff if available without people getting ripped off. I think this is a good model for the Amiga that doesnt leave one person taking a huge amount of risk.

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

Just seems to me that all you see is out of stock on all websites selling Individual Computers hardware. Loads of demand, just no hardware.

That just doesn't mean there's demand. It means that there is a minimum of one person looking at that page (you). You have no idea how many more there are. And as has been pointed out, the demand is very unlikely to be very high.

The Amiga community is small, and getting steadily smaller each day. More people die each year that grew up with it than adopt it. It's a sad state of affairs, but it's true.

There will be no new Amiga that blows the PC or Mac out of the water, it will never, ever be mainstream ever again, it will forever be consigned to the niche that an ever-dwindling population of retro enthusiasts has carved out for it. And one day there will be nobody left who ever actually used one, or even own one.

So we enjoy it for what it was, for the memories we created around it for even this too will one day fade to nothing. And all anyone will have left is WinUAE, assuming that it continues to be developed long after Toni Wilen is gone and the PC as we know it is fondly remembered the same way the Amiga is to us.

Such is the way of all things.

[jediknight]

Originally Posted by Dunny

That just doesn't mean there's demand. It means that there is a minimum of one person looking at that page (you). You have no idea how many more there are. And as has been pointed out, the demand is very unlikely to be very high.

The Amiga community is small, and getting steadily smaller each day. More people die each year that grew up with it than adopt it. It's a sad state of affairs, but it's true.

There will be no new Amiga that blows the PC or Mac out of the water, it will never, ever be mainstream ever again, it will forever be consigned to the niche that an ever-dwindling population of retro enthusiasts has carved out for it. And one day there will be nobody left who ever actually used one, or even own one.

So we enjoy it for what it was, for the memories we created around it for even this too will one day fade to nothing. And all anyone will have left is WinUAE, assuming that it continues to be developed long after Toni Wilen is gone and the PC as we know it is fondly remembered the same way the Amiga is to us.

Such is the way of all things.

dont agree it could easily be mainstream but for the lack of software developers , and that kills consoles computers of all types and it will always be the downfall not the hardware.

[MigaTech]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Define "Loads of demand"? 50? 100? 1,000? In such a small community it's very easy for a small number of people to make a large amount of noise. We don't know the economics behind it, but perhaps there isn't actually enough demand. What if it is only 100 people constantly asking for a new Indivision, for example, and to make it worthwhile, a minimum of 500 units need to be ordered? Then you're down the cost of 400 units which sit in boxes in a warehouse somewhere. Suddenly the massive demand has dried up, since those 100 people now have their product and all is quiet again.

Oh, and sorry, I don't normally do this either, but similar to clebin's point: "must of"?

You don't normally do it? Anyways correction made again as everyone seems to be picking at my English Grammar, as if they have NEVER made simply mistakes like this before!

I help someone with a simple spelling mistake and now I am a target for correct Grammar. Interesting!

Anyways. I still think Individual Computers should try to create more hardware or like Plasmab has kindly done, make it open source so that others, can produce them.

Amigakit had 200 Vampires and they sold out almost instantly.

High Amiga prices is a good thing because it may attract more companies to invest and make more products. OK so it is not easy for the buyers but let us understand, that this is retro tech and most work is custom, which takes time, effort and money.

The Amiga will never disappear completely. It will always have followers even if they are not from the time when it was first introduced.

The valve radio is still admired by many and the same shall be said of Amiga, many years from now.

We the original users, are paving the way for others to continue the legacy, that is Amiga.

You say that there shall never be another Amiga, I wouldn't be too sure about that. Nobody knows how technology will change in the future.

There are members on here who are working on revised modern Amiga motherboards, which means maybe someday, someone will build an Amiga with AGA, Vampire HDMI and everything else built in!

You can only wonder what the demand would be for that?

[plasmab]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

You don't normally do it? Anyways correction made again as everyone seems to be picking at my English Grammar, as if they have NEVER made simply mistakes like this before!



I help someone with a simple spelling mistake and now I am a target for correct Grammar. Interesting!



Anyways. I still think Individual Computers should try to create more hardware or like Plasmab has kindly done, make it open source so that others, can produce them.



Amigakit had 200 Vampires and they sold out almost instantly.



High Amiga prices is a good thing because it may attract more companies to invest and make more products. OK so it is not easy for the buyers but let us understand, that this is retro tech and most work is custom, which takes time, effort and money.



The Amiga will never disappear completely. It will always have followers even if they are not from the time when it was first introduced.



The valve radio is still admired by many and the same shall be said of Amiga, many years from now.



We the original users, are paving the way for others to continue the legacy, that is Amiga.



You say that there shall never be another Amiga, I wouldn't be too sure about that. Nobody knows how technology will change in the future.



There are members on here who are working on revised modern Amiga motherboards, which means maybe someday, someone will build an Amiga with AGA, Vampire HDMI and everything else built in!



You can only wonder what the demand would be for that?

I wouldn’t buy it.. because it’s not an Amiga. I want to use upgraded original hardware. If I want that I use MiST.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

You don't normally do it?

Nope, I don't. If I did I wouldn't have any time for doing anything else. But I occasionally do it for someone who has corrected someone else.

Anyways correction made again as everyone seems to be picking at my English Grammar, as if they have NEVER made simply mistakes like this before!

Nope, I have made, and will continue to make mistakes.

I help someone with a simple spelling mistake and now I am a target for correct Grammar. Interesting!

All I was doing was helping you out with a mistake that you made, just like you did for another user.

Anyways. I still think Individual Computers should try to create more hardware

Yep, and they are doing that. Only recently there was a new Buddha IDE controller released, which I'm sure was not a small feat.

or like Plasmab has kindly done, make it open source so that others, can produce them.

That would be nice, but unlikely for the vast majority of commercial efforts on any platform.

Amigakit had 200 Vampires and they sold out almost instantly.

Not every piece of hardware has the same level of demand as the Vampire.

High Amiga prices is a good thing because it may attract more companies to invest and make more products. OK so it is not easy for the buyers but let us understand, that this is retro tech and most work is custom, which takes time, effort and money.

Indeed, but this point is lost on many who complain about current hardware prices, including old second-hand equipment like computers and accelerators, as well as next-gen gear. For some, hardware is already too expensive.

The Amiga will never disappear completely. It will always have followers even if they are not from the time when it was first introduced.

The valve radio is still admired by many and the same shall be said of Amiga, many years from now.

Indeed. However a valve radio is something that can be assembled using a tag board and some crimps, and doesn't attract the same large investments in development time or manufacturing runs.

You say that there shall never be another Amiga,

Do I?

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Nobody knows how technology will change in the future.

There are new boards available and others currently being developed featuring current technology like PCI Express and SATA. It turns out that that's not actually what a lot of Amiga users want. They don't want a new Amiga, they just want their old one.

There are members on here who are working on revised modern Amiga motherboards, which means maybe someday, someone will build an Amiga with AGA, Vampire HDMI and everything else built in!

Sounds like the stand-alone Vampire V4. Which is great and includes modern technology and all that, but is basically just a reimplementation/approximation of old Amigas. It's not a new Amiga, just an old one on steroids.

You can only wonder what the demand would be for that?

Quite high I suspect. That's a very different market to those who want to use and expand their original hardware.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by jediknight

dont agree it could easily be mainstream but for the lack of software developers , and that kills consoles computers of all types and it will always be the downfall not the hardware.

That ship sailed a quarter of a century ago. That's like several lifetimes in the tech world - it's just too big a deficit to make up. Where would the developers come from and why? Why did they leave the Amiga platform in the first place? It's a pretty narrow view to say it's just the software developers that caused it, but the reality is that the platform wasn't profitable, so they moved to other platforms (and thus, other hardware) that was more profitable for them. There are many facets to the downfall of any system, in the Amiga's case, hardware, software, management and the surrounding culture of users all contributed in some way.

[DonAmiga]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

The best site is Generation Amiga for the latest Amiga/upgrade information. This site is always searching/covering for any Amiga/upgraded related information. They don't miss a trick so worth checking them out!

https://www.generationamiga.com/

They pretty much cover everything for Amiga.

As for already released items such as ACA620EC and ECS flicker fixer, it is exactly what the other member stated.

Nice Thanks for sharing

[E-Penguin]

Originally Posted by Dunny

And all anyone will have left is WinUAE, assuming that it continues to be developed long after Toni Wilen is gone

His achievements will be difficult to emulate.

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

His achievements will be difficult to emulate.

Indeed they will, but he won't be around forever and his work is the basis of every other Amiga emulator out there (with the possible exception of WinFellow).

To put it another way, if he is still around when Windows machines are a thing of the past then there's a chance it will be ported to whatever comes next. But the reality is that there is no real guarantee that this will be the case - and at that point Amiga emulation will likely die, as the last gasping breath of the platform as a whole.

[MigaTech]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Nope, I don't. If I did I wouldn't have any time for doing anything else. But I occasionally do it for someone who has corrected someone else.

OK, fair enough, I just got ahead of myself.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Nope, I have made, and will continue to make mistakes.

Nice to know you can admit this.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

All I was doing was helping you out with a mistake that you made, just like you did for another user.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Yep, and they are doing that. Only recently there was a new Buddha IDE controller released, which I'm sure was not a small feat.

Always a good thing. knowing that new hardware is being developed.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Not every piece of hardware has the same level of demand as the Vampire.

Maybe, or maybe not, but at least there is a demand, I am not accepting what Dunny stated, that I am the only one looking on these websites and noticing no hardware available. There is a demand and when it's there, they should jump on it. It is only another reason to put people off Amiga, on account they cannot get hold of what they need.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Indeed, but this point is lost on many who complain about current hardware prices, including old second-hand equipment like computers and accelerators, as well as next-gen gear. For some, hardware is already too expensive.

Yes I totally agree! Yet, those that complain also have no idea of how much time money and effort goes in to custom work. If they did, they would realise that maybe most who build custom retro computer systems and hardware, are not charging enough!

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Indeed. However a valve radio is something that can be assembled using a tag board and some crimps, and doesn't attract the same large investments in development time or manufacturing runs.

I think you get my meaning?

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Do I?

Maybe not you, but some members think so.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Quite high I suspect. That's a very different market to those who want to use and expand their original hardware.

Yes but in the retro scene, who cares as long as the interest is kept where needed!

Originally Posted by jediknight

dont agree it could easily be mainstream but for the lack of software developers , and that kills consoles computers of all types and it will always be the downfall not the hardware.

This isn't actually a bad suggestion, I agree with this to some extent.

Originally Posted by DonAmiga

Nice Thanks for sharing

You are most welcome!

[clebin]

Originally Posted by Dunny

So we enjoy it for what it was, for the memories we created around it for even this too will one day fade to nothing. ... Such is the way of all things.

I can't agree with your morbid outlook! I work in a museum and I'm surrounded by people old and young, paid and volunteering, who devote their working lives to things way outside their own lifetime. History will always be kept alive by enthusiasts (even those who get paid do it for the love rather than the pay). And not just in museums - the world is full of historical societies and engineering societies - people digging things up, conversing and restoring objects, rebuilding steam engines, reconstructing old buildings with traditional crafts, performing historical reinactments, researching ridiculously niche topics and so on and so on.

The Amiga is an important early building block in the history of computing (if it doesn't seem early now, then it will in a hundred years!) and as such it will live on with people born a very long time from now...

[MigaTech]

Originally Posted by clebin

I can't agree with your morbid outlook! I work in a museum and I'm surrounded by people old and young, paid and volunteering, who devote their working lives to things way outside their own lifetime. History will always be kept alive by enthusiasts (even those who get paid do it for the love rather than the pay). And not just in museums - the world is full of historical societies and engineering societies - people digging things up, conversing and restoring objects, rebuilding steam engines, researching ridiculously niche topics and so on and so on.

The Amiga is an important early building block in the history of computing (if it doesn't seem early now, then it will in a hundred years!) and as such it will live on with people born a very long time from now...

Yes this is very true! Dunny was going a tad OTT on wiping out the total existence of Amiga. Like the Commodore 64, the Amiga has already gone down in history, which means it is preserved for all time.

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by clebin

The Amiga is an important early building block in the history of computing (if it doesn't seem early now, then it will in a hundred years!) and as such it will live on with people born a very long time from now...

But in what form? There are no new steam engines being built - there's no demand beyond enthusiasts such as the BlueBell folks. Instead new parts are made as needed to keep older engines running.

There are no new DEC Alphas being made - but some enthusiasts have one or two that they keep going through self-made repairs.

The Amiga will be the same. No new viable mass-produced models, just the occasional prop for the enthusiasts. Take the new A5000 - or don't because it's really not much of an Amiga. In the future there will be interest in it, but nothing beyond "look at this old tech."

It won't make a resurgence in popularity, it will become a niche museum piece, kept on life support by retro enthusiasts and tinkerers who remember it fondly, as we do.

Demand for a new Amiga is small now, and won't get any larger.

[clebin]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

Yes this is very true! Dunny was going a tad OTT on wiping out the total existence of Amiga. Like the Commodore 64, the Amiga has already gone down in history, which means it is preserved for all time.

Definitely. To answer the short-term stuff, I think the right product would go a long way. Not to becoming mainstream or anything daft like that, but certainly to attract new people.

The Spectrum Next seems to have gained a lot of followers who were never Speccy owners back in the day. I don't have figures for that, so it's a bit of a 'anecdata', but I read this quite a lot from backers of the Kickstarter.

I think the partnership between Philippe Lang's A1200.net and the Apollo/Vampire team could be a very interesting one. In a year or two, they'll have everything they need to build a complete Amiga in a replica A500/A1200 case, bar the mechanical part of the keyboard.

With Philippe's experience, that could be a very successful campaign that would definitely attract people from the wider retro community. How many? Don't know - but more than we've had the past 20 years, I reckon.

[clebin]

Originally Posted by Dunny

It won't make a resurgence in popularity, it will become a niche museum piece, kept on life support by retro enthusiasts and tinkerers who remember it fondly, as we do.

Much the same as now then!

Demand for a new Amiga is small now, and won't get any larger.

Does that matter? I remember when Steve Jobs did a deal with Microsoft, he said something along the lines of "we need to lose the idea that for us to succeed, Microsoft has to fail" It's the same here. We are never going compete with the big boys again but that doesn't mean failure or death.

If you go to a classic car show and all you see is death and decay, and not the beautiful machinery and lots of enthusiasts having a whale of a time, then I feel your soul needs a bit of nourishment!

[Dunny]

Oh, believe me I love the Amiga and all that it was. I'm a pretty serious retro-nerd, and have written 8bit emulators myself (some of my work went commercial in UK schools to teach programming, even!)

But I'm also realistic. As much as I love the games I played, as much as I pine for the glorious days of four-second boot times, the ease of Workbench and Directory Opus 4, they're never coming back in any significant way.

Museums and retro enthusiasts are all that are in our futures, and once we're all dead there will be very little interest at all beyond those domains. There will be nobody who was touched by the scene as it was when we were younger. Nobody left who waited eagerly for new releases, pored over magazines gazing at the new hardware that was to be (which sadly never materialised). The only people who will continue the Amiga's existence will be people who just weren't there.

But of course, that doesn't stop us enthusing now and the games will be fun to play no matter how much time has passed.

I wonder how long it will be before there is no viable original Amiga hardware left at all? The disks are all going, hence the rush to preserve as many as possible digitally. The hardware itself will last longer, but can't last forever. We can replace capacitors and chips, but will it still be an original Amiga? Trigger's broom certainly applies there.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by Dunny

But in what form? There are no new steam engines being built - there's no demand beyond enthusiasts such as the BlueBell folks. Instead new parts are made as needed to keep older engines running.

*cough* Yes, it's a solitary exception, but the rather magnificent Tornado is a recently built steam engine that has been built brand new from scratch based on old designs with some modernised features, and is qualified for main line running at 100MPH in the UK. In that way it's close to a stand-alone Vampire in Amiga terms...
But I do get your point.

[MigaTech]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

*cough* Yes, it's a solitary exception, but the rather magnificent Tornado is a recently built steam engine that has been built brand new from scratch based on old designs with some modernised features, and is qualified for main line running at 100MPH in the UK. In that way it's close to a stand-alone Vampire in Amiga terms...
But I do get your point.

That's actually the new Hogwarts Express!