Vroom on A1200 basic configuration!

amilo3438 · 12 November 2019, 20:16

I have been testing, by accident, the game "Vroom (1991)(Lankhor).adf", (adf version / not WHDLoad version) on Winuae in quickstart A1200 basic configuration ...

At boot get into "Amiga Early Startup Control / Boot Options" and tick Disable CPU Caches.

In winuae, the title screen has some glitches! (Note: with CPU Cashes enabled, the title screen is broken.)

Now Wonder how it behaves on a real A1200 basic machine with CPU cashes enabled/disabled?

Maybe it could be of help in some future emulated 68020 CPU checking/adjusting as a possible test case.

EDIT:
Maybe also can be of use some demos that helped as test cases in 68000 most_likely_CPU_emulator_timing problems:
Tested in Winuae quickstart A1200 basic CE=full config and Early startup control "boot options = disable cache ticked" and "display options = chip type original ticked".

"D_Mob-BobDemo" ... after loading it stops at black screen (with higher freq it passes) and after at some parts it speed up!
"DOPE-Demog" ... works fine!
"Epsilon-NewBeginning" ... it just stops after a while! (with higher freq it passes)
"Oblivion-LastA500" ... works fine!
"X-Men-Mental27Intro" ... works fine!

amilo3438 · 13 November 2019, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

I have been testing, by accident, the game "Vroom (1991)(Lankhor).adf", (adf version / not WHDLoad version) on Winuae in quickstart A1200 basic configuration ...

Forgot to mention that the tested .adf file has CRC=57CE4F33.

Other...

Today have been playing with some demos used for A500 68000 cases but now in winuae A1200 basic config CE=full (cache disabled, display ocs).
I was suprised to find how lot of tested demos work pretty nice on a such configuration.
For thoose that did not work helped relokick 1.41 with cpu cache disabled.

But also found one demo that behaves strange in above mentioned A1200 config: "Upfront-CoolFridge.dms"

Or the timing of this demo is too difficult for winuae A1200, or it behaves the same on a real A1200.

I guess it should be tested on an real A1200 to see/check how it behaves there!

EDIT:
OK, it seems to behaves that strange only when cycle-exact = full. (if wait for blitter is disabled it crashes also on CE=DMS/memory mode ... in CE=disabled it works)
Hmm, and other demos has been also tested in CE=full mode but did not have any problem.

DamienD · 13 November 2019, 19:18

Why are you testing stuff intended for an A500 using an A1200 configuration and how exactly is this going to help Toni improve A1200 emulation?

You're lucky if it works, downgraders or fixes usually need to be applied. This is why a lot of A500 games get fixed to work on A1200's and have the [f AGA] or [f 68020] tags in TOSEC.

amilo3438 · 13 November 2019, 19:24

Maybe you do not understand the point:
If it works on a real A1200 with the same configuration, it should also work on an emulated, right?!

DamienD · 13 November 2019, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Maybe you do not understand the point:
If it works on a real A1200 with the same configuration, it should also work on an emulated, right?!

Oh I get that part... but from reading your posts it seems that you are not testing on a real A1200 otherwise you wouldn't say the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Now Wonder how it behaves on a real A1200 basic machine with CPU cashes enabled/disabled?

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

I guess it should be tested on an real A1200 to see/check how it behaves there!

amilo3438 · 13 November 2019, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamienD

Oh I get that part... but from reading your posts it seems that you are not testing on a real A1200 otherwise you wouldn't say the following:

No I dont, I'm having a little fun while I don't get bored, but findings could be used for someone to compare on an real machine if he/she wish.

DamienD · 13 November 2019, 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

No I dont, I'm having a little fun while I don't get bored, but findings could be used for someone to compare on an real machine if he/she wish.

Hence my point... if you are not testing on a real A1200 then all this is just pure speculation.

You cannot then say the following as you haven't tested and don't know:

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

If it works on a real A1200 with the same configuration, it should also work on an emulated, right?!

amilo3438 · 13 November 2019, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamienD

Hence my point... if you are not testing on a real A1200 then all this is just pure speculation.

Of course that it should be compared also on an real machine before reaching a final conclusion.
Than threads "Problematic Demos" and "Problematic AGA demos" are also sort of speculation. (as are 1st tested only on winuae)

BTW...
I dont know, but somehow have feeling that my posts annoy you for some reason?

In the Rules it says...

Personal attacks:
"As much as another member may annoy you, or has “wronged” you in another thread, this forum is not the place to carry out a vendetta against them."

DamienD · 13 November 2019, 20:26

Give me a brake... how are my replies to you personal attacks?

I'm really confused about the purpose of this thread

You say stuff like:

Maybe it could be of help in some future emulated 68020 CPU checking/adjusting as a possible test case.
Now Wonder how it behaves on a real A1200 basic machine with CPU cashes enabled/disabled?
I guess it should be tested on an real A1200 to see/check how it behaves there!

Again, you're playing around with stuff meant for A500s and running them on A1200 configurations without using degraders or coder fixes, and saying this is useful when it doesn't work? These are meant to be run on A500s.

What do you think WHDLoad was invented for? One of the main reasons was to allow games meant for A500s / A600s to run on A1200s and above

As I said, pure speculation and I really don't see what you're getting at.

On the other hand, if you had said that you tested x A500 game on your real A1200 and it works, but doesn't in emulation then I totally get reporting it.

...but that's not what you're doing are you?

It's like me saying "I tried to run Aladdin using an A500 configuration, it started to load but there were graphics issues and then it stopped. Maybe this could help improve A500 emulation?"

amilo3438 · 13 November 2019, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

BTW...
I dont know, but somehow have feeling that my posts annoy you for some reason?

In the Rules it says...

Personal attacks:
"As much as another member may annoy you, or has “wronged” you in another thread, this forum is not the place to carry out a vendetta against them."

I could add also...

Persistently trolling specific users and/or projects:

"By and large you will know that you are trolling as it’s a conscious decision you have likely made. Examples of trolling are posting remarks directed towards other members consistently that are negative, always trying to turn a discussion into the topic you wish to troll against."

Retroplay · 13 November 2019, 21:09

"Vroom on A1200 basic configuration", well that's bound to cause problems.
If my memory serves me right, Vroom is not A1200 compatible without using some sort of degrader.
Why use an A1200 config for a game made with A500 in mind ?

amilo3438 · 13 November 2019, 21:17

The version I have tested works in winuae A1200 config as mentioned on the 1st post, but with small glitches.

The idea was to check/compare it on an real machine (what I unfortunately can not) to see how it behaves there, in order to improve emulation timings or whatever needed in the future.

I know for WHDLoad, and its purpose. (I mentioned it in the 1st post that is an adf version).
Of course there exists versions of Vroom that will not work even with used configuration in this, lets call it test.

DamienD · 13 November 2019, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

The version I have tested works in winuae A1200 config as mentioned on the 1st post, but with small glitches.

The idea was to check/compare it on an real machine (what I unfortunately can not) to see how it behaves there, in order to improve emulation timings or whatever needed in the future.

...but why would anybody try running the floppy disk version of a game made for an A500 on an A1200?

How is this supposed to help improve A1200 emulation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

In the Rules it says...

Personal attacks:
"As much as another member may annoy you, or has “wronged” you in another thread, this forum is not the place to carry out a vendetta against them."

Quote:

Originally Posted by amilo3438

I could add also...

Persistently trolling specific users and/or projects:

"By and large you will know that you are trolling as it’s a conscious decision you have likely made. Examples of trolling are posting remarks directed towards other members consistently that are negative, always trying to turn a discussion into the topic you wish to troll against."

Please don't bother quoting the rules at me... I know them very well and actually helped write them

I'm not going to explain myself again, but I am not issuing personal attacks or trolling you. I'm simply questioning the reason for this thread and saying that your logic makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever.

Please slowly re-read the thread.

Mclane · 13 November 2019, 21:18

Amilo, I appreciate all your hard work on the demo testing that really has helped the emulation aspect get more able but you have to bare in mind that trying to check stuff without the aid of a real machine to compare results might well be a bit of "fun" for you but its asking others to take a serious look at your results when they are based on nothing.

Toni spends so much of his spare time working on WinUAE so throwing him fantasy scenario's is a bit silly.

As for Damien trolling you, seriously, he's just trying to understand what is going on, its asking you a question, nothing like trolling of personal attacks, please don't cry wolf.

SO have a pleasant evening and think about all this please, its a fun place, lets keep it that way...

amilo3438 · 13 November 2019, 21:25

Well, lets to explain what was my idea...

The idea was to check the timings of emulated 68000 instructions that was used for in older stuff. I guess its easier to improve timings on this 1st than other specific 68020 instructions. (IMHO)

But I am not the coder and could be wrong.

Yes, A1200 and 68020 is compatible with 68000 instruction set.

Mclane · 14 November 2019, 11:22

The 68020 is quite compatible with the basic 68000 but obviously there are differences such as the 32bit buses compared to the 24 bit ones on the 68000 so there's always extra's from the newer chip but there usually some incompatibilities.

I like your idea but as a rule of thumb I tend to go for the target computer for the software because you could be well in to a game etc and then suddenly find there in an issue with it being on a different configuration that expected and then almost all of your time has been wasted..

Its a noble thing you want to do but its not really going to help the emulation as its at odds with itself, ie trying to make a game run on a configuration that its not targeted for, that in itself is a headache to debug in the same way Toni asks for the use of real world configs and some options like JIT not to be enabled as it confuses the mix.

This is a task for a person with both real machines and a HUGE amount of time free, the benefit would be a database of what will work fine on a 1200 and I'm sure I have seen some small lists along the lines but for me its not really helpful to the emulation side so probably more right for a different forum.

Not trying to put you off and I really am grateful for all the hard time you put in to the demo testing which I was sceptical at first about but Toni stood up for you and explained the help it was and I was then behind you 100% and it really did find some real benefits to the emulation between you and Toni.

Thank you..

Zarnal · 14 November 2019, 12:54

Hello,

I've tested +-400 (and documented only with winuae 4.1.0 for my protocol, in French) +- 400 demos. Toni say's 99% of issues are CPU related. I understand.

https://www.amigafrance.com/forums/t...a-a1200-stock/

But

for some AGA demos (CPU fastest and/or chipset CE disabled) the similar issues persists.

Example (tested and not confirmed on real hardware in exactly same conditions, A1200+4Mb) :

Passion-Alien inspiration

CNCD/Parrallax-Deep

I don't know what to think.

Mclane · 14 November 2019, 18:29

Without a comparison to real hardware its mostly guess work.

Zarnal · 14 November 2019, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mclane

Without a comparison to real hardware its mostly guess work.

Hello,

my two examples was also compared on real hardware (A1200+4Mo).

Toni Wilen · 14 November 2019, 19:06

As I have said dozens of times. This information is useless. Only useful information is 68020 internal design (that does not exist in public).
EDIT: and I don't watch videos. Screen shots only.

12 November 2019, 20:16	#1
amilo3438 Amiga 500 User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: EU Posts: 1,501	Vroom on A1200 basic configuration! I have been testing, by accident, the game "Vroom (1991)(Lankhor).adf", (adf version / not WHDLoad version) on Winuae in quickstart A1200 basic configuration ... At boot get into "Amiga Early Startup Control / Boot Options" and tick Disable CPU Caches. In winuae, the title screen has some glitches! (Note: with CPU Cashes enabled, the title screen is broken.) Now Wonder how it behaves on a real A1200 basic machine with CPU cashes enabled/disabled? Maybe it could be of help in some future emulated 68020 CPU checking/adjusting as a possible test case. EDIT: Maybe also can be of use some demos that helped as test cases in 68000 most_likely_CPU_emulator_timing problems: Tested in Winuae quickstart A1200 basic CE=full config and Early startup control "boot options = disable cache ticked" and "display options = chip type original ticked". "D_Mob-BobDemo" ... after loading it stops at black screen (with higher freq it passes) and after at some parts it speed up! "DOPE-Demog" ... works fine! "Epsilon-NewBeginning" ... it just stops after a while! (with higher freq it passes) "Oblivion-LastA500" ... works fine! "X-Men-Mental27Intro" ... works fine! Last edited by amilo3438; 12 November 2019 at 22:23.

13 November 2019, 20:26	#9
DamienD Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London / Sydney Age: 47 Posts: 20,420	Give me a brake... how are my replies to you personal attacks? I'm really confused about the purpose of this thread You say stuff like: Maybe it could be of help in some future emulated 68020 CPU checking/adjusting as a possible test case. Now Wonder how it behaves on a real A1200 basic machine with CPU cashes enabled/disabled? I guess it should be tested on an real A1200 to see/check how it behaves there! Again, you're playing around with stuff meant for A500s and running them on A1200 configurations without using degraders or coder fixes, and saying this is useful when it doesn't work? These are meant to be run on A500s. What do you think WHDLoad was invented for? One of the main reasons was to allow games meant for A500s / A600s to run on A1200s and above As I said, pure speculation and I really don't see what you're getting at. On the other hand, if you had said that you tested x A500 game on your real A1200 and it works, but doesn't in emulation then I totally get reporting it. ...but that's not what you're doing are you? It's like me saying "I tried to run Aladdin using an A500 configuration, it started to load but there were graphics issues and then it stopped. Maybe this could help improve A500 emulation?" Last edited by DamienD; 13 November 2019 at 20:36.

14 November 2019, 12:54	#17
Zarnal Registered User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: France Posts: 504	Hello, I've tested +-400 (and documented only with winuae 4.1.0 for my protocol, in French) +- 400 demos. Toni say's 99% of issues are CPU related. I understand. https://www.amigafrance.com/forums/t...a-a1200-stock/ But for some AGA demos (CPU fastest and/or chipset CE disabled) the similar issues persists. Example (tested and not confirmed on real hardware in exactly same conditions, A1200+4Mb) : Passion-Alien inspiration CNCD/Parrallax-Deep I don't know what to think. Last edited by Zarnal; 14 November 2019 at 19:37.

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13 November 2019, 19:18	#3
DamienD Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London / Sydney Age: 47 Posts: 20,420	Why are you testing stuff intended for an A500 using an A1200 configuration and how exactly is this going to help Toni improve A1200 emulation? You're lucky if it works, downgraders or fixes usually need to be applied. This is why a lot of A500 games get fixed to work on A1200's and have the [f AGA] or [f 68020] tags in TOSEC.

13 November 2019, 19:24	#4
amilo3438 Amiga 500 User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: EU Posts: 1,501	Maybe you do not understand the point: If it works on a real A1200 with the same configuration, it should also work on an emulated, right?!

13 November 2019, 21:09	#11
Retroplay Lemon Curry ? Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Denmark Age: 49 Posts: 4,079	"Vroom on A1200 basic configuration", well that's bound to cause problems. If my memory serves me right, Vroom is not A1200 compatible without using some sort of degrader. Why use an A1200 config for a game made with A500 in mind ?

13 November 2019, 21:17	#12
amilo3438 Amiga 500 User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: EU Posts: 1,501	The version I have tested works in winuae A1200 config as mentioned on the 1st post, but with small glitches. The idea was to check/compare it on an real machine (what I unfortunately can not) to see how it behaves there, in order to improve emulation timings or whatever needed in the future. I know for WHDLoad, and its purpose. (I mentioned it in the 1st post that is an adf version). Of course there exists versions of Vroom that will not work even with used configuration in this, lets call it test.

13 November 2019, 21:18	#14
Mclane Old retro god. Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Northolt, West London Age: 62 Posts: 857	Amilo, I appreciate all your hard work on the demo testing that really has helped the emulation aspect get more able but you have to bare in mind that trying to check stuff without the aid of a real machine to compare results might well be a bit of "fun" for you but its asking others to take a serious look at your results when they are based on nothing. Toni spends so much of his spare time working on WinUAE so throwing him fantasy scenario's is a bit silly. As for Damien trolling you, seriously, he's just trying to understand what is going on, its asking you a question, nothing like trolling of personal attacks, please don't cry wolf. SO have a pleasant evening and think about all this please, its a fun place, lets keep it that way...

13 November 2019, 21:25	#15
amilo3438 Amiga 500 User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: EU Posts: 1,501	Well, lets to explain what was my idea... The idea was to check the timings of emulated 68000 instructions that was used for in older stuff. I guess its easier to improve timings on this 1st than other specific 68020 instructions. (IMHO) But I am not the coder and could be wrong. Yes, A1200 and 68020 is compatible with 68000 instruction set.

14 November 2019, 11:22	#16
Mclane Old retro god. Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Northolt, West London Age: 62 Posts: 857	The 68020 is quite compatible with the basic 68000 but obviously there are differences such as the 32bit buses compared to the 24 bit ones on the 68000 so there's always extra's from the newer chip but there usually some incompatibilities. I like your idea but as a rule of thumb I tend to go for the target computer for the software because you could be well in to a game etc and then suddenly find there in an issue with it being on a different configuration that expected and then almost all of your time has been wasted.. Its a noble thing you want to do but its not really going to help the emulation as its at odds with itself, ie trying to make a game run on a configuration that its not targeted for, that in itself is a headache to debug in the same way Toni asks for the use of real world configs and some options like JIT not to be enabled as it confuses the mix. This is a task for a person with both real machines and a HUGE amount of time free, the benefit would be a database of what will work fine on a 1200 and I'm sure I have seen some small lists along the lines but for me its not really helpful to the emulation side so probably more right for a different forum. Not trying to put you off and I really am grateful for all the hard time you put in to the demo testing which I was sceptical at first about but Toni stood up for you and explained the help it was and I was then behind you 100% and it really did find some real benefits to the emulation between you and Toni. Thank you..

14 November 2019, 18:29	#18
Mclane Old retro god. Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Northolt, West London Age: 62 Posts: 857	Without a comparison to real hardware its mostly guess work.

14 November 2019, 19:06	#20
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	As I have said dozens of times. This information is useless. Only useful information is 68020 internal design (that does not exist in public). EDIT: and I don't watch videos. Screen shots only.

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