Battle of the Ports / Retrocore - Youtube channel

[dreadnought]

I don't watch any youtubers but this thing of looking down on Amiga (and 8-bit micros in general) is pretty common amongst people who grew up with Nintendo/Sega/etc consoles only (mostly US folks obviously).

It's not always malicious, just stemming from lack of experience with these platforms and automatic assumptions, but there are also plenty of hostile types willing to shout that "Amiga's library is 99% garbage" to anybody who'll listen.

Overall, it also in a way reflects how unfairly skewed the whole "retrogaming" scene is - for example, if you check that sub on reddit you'll see overwhelming majority of posts dedicated to retro consoles. Or, there are 10+ cores for SNES alone in libretro, whilst only one for Amiga (not easy to run either).

It's extremely unfair, given how amazing these machines were and what a wealth of extraordinary soft their libraries have. Many people who follow these channels or blogs could benefit from being told about it, but yeah, as you said attitude sells, and $ is everything.

[dreamkatcha]

I probably shouldn't have brought AVGN into it because the difference between the two channels is thankfully huge. Just to say that unnecessary negativity for sport can infect otherwise great content (deliberately or unconsciously). It's fair enough if the criticism is valid, pointless and uncreative when the jibes are merely attention-seeking.

I watched a series of SNES Drunk videos the other day titled something like "quality games in unexpected places" which is a good example of your point, dreadnought. While the host was very complimentary about some of our games, it was an annoying backhanded compliment since he assumes that on the whole the home computers (particularly those that were popular in Europe) are worthless. That the exceptions to the rule he found somehow go against the grain.

Another Nintendo-oriented video I watched from a different YouTuber opens with "game x was only available for the NES", despite it also being released for every 8-bit home computer of the era as well as the Atari ST and Amiga. It's closeminded, blinkered ethnocentrism aside from demonstrating that the host was incapable of performing a quick Google search.

Mark is nowhere near that clueless so I'm not extrapolating to Retro Core. That just riled me.

[vulture]

He's basically a mega drive fan boy and has an obvious problem with most euro systems, but especially the amiga. He's always been this way, but gone even more downhill lately, that's true.

[Gzegzolka]

I like his videos even if sometimes I have different opinions on games.
He could improve if he use real hardware for video capture, sometimes he pick games that run awfully in emulators.

[mcgeezer]

I'll port Rygar and Bomb Jack to the SNES, that'll piss him off.

btw... I've never watched his channel and don't intend to.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by vulture

He's basically a mega drive fan boy and has an obvious problem with most euro systems, but especially the amiga. He's always been this way, but gone even more downhill lately, that's true.

Yeah, you're right.

I've decided to fix "the issue" for myself by not watching anymore. I watch these videos for a fun comparison, not for this kind of stuff. I'll check out ChinnyVision instead

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

I'll port Rygar and Bomb Jack to the SNES, that'll piss him off.

btw... I've never watched his channel and don't intend to.

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by roondar

I just watched the Speedball II video he released yesterday and he actually couldn't stay positive about the Amiga and it's community even for a game he admitted was pretty good on the system. He literally talked about angry Amiga fans soiling their pants and made a special point about how this game might be good, but so many others were terrible...

I had no problems with that statement, I could place it in context. If you watch all of the other RetroCore videos, and by golly I have at least twice, then you will find that among the games reviewed which are games with many ports and thus not Amiga originals, the Amiga version quite often IS running behind on the others. I hear love for the Amiga in such a statement, because the Amiga version should be better than other home computer ports. But it frequently isn't.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by gimbal

I had no problems with that statement, I could place it in context. If you watch all of the other RetroCore videos, and by golly I have at least twice, then you will find that among the games reviewed which are games with many ports and thus not Amiga originals, the Amiga version quite often IS running behind on the others. I hear love for the Amiga in such a statement, because the Amiga version should be better than other home computer ports. But it frequently isn't.

I have watched the vast majority of Retro Core videos. And I don't agree that he's showing "love" when he does this. There are other systems that routinely get poor ports (while being capable of doing a lot better) that are featured on his show. He doesn't act at all the same towards those.

A good port on a system that features few is something to celebrate, not something to make snarky remarks about. This is especially noticeable because the Amiga is the only system where he routinely does this. If other systems get a better than expected port he'll react very positively. He certainly won't make comments about angry fanboys (that turn out to not really exist to any serious degree - if you actually take the time to read his comment sections for videos featuring Amiga games, you'll see most Amiga posters agreeing with his conclusions most of the time).

But enough of this, what do I care anyway - you're free to have your opinion and if you like his videos that is fair enough

[Valken]

I watched the speed ball video and honestly, did not think it was too bad. CD32 was the most beautiful, but MegaDrive was smoother, in the video and had the ability to toggle background music.

Rather, I would use his videos as a guide to improve Amiga games. Speed up Speedball 2 and add in the music during game play for example. I don't see what is wrong with this personally.

I can understand if he made too many snarky remarks against the Amiga, but you know, you cannot please everyone. Some people will not be impressed with whatever you tell them so best to use it as resource and draw our own conclusions.

I like the fact that someone does these comparison videos and I love to see the Japanese computers as well as European ones. MSX2, Spectrum, CPC, Sharp X68000 and heck, why not FM Towns, PC-98 and Neo Geo tossed in for that matter, including ARCADE if possible?

We all love games, and ideally, we would like to play the "best of" versions for any of the games, or even a hybrid remake of the best of like we see today.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by roondar

I just watched the Speedball II video he released yesterday and he actually couldn't stay positive about the Amiga and it's community even for a game he admitted was pretty good on the system. He literally talked about angry Amiga fans soiling their pants and made a special point about how this game might be good, but so many others were terrible...

I wonder if this is even salvageable at this point, he never says or does anything of the sort for any other system.

Well, I am as much of an Amiga fan as any other EAB dweller and I completely agree with Mark (the author of BOTP).

As you pointed out, his gripe is not with the Amiga but with the fanboyism that accompanies its arcade conversions.
It is just a fact that most Amiga arcade ports are at best average but yet still enjoy a good reputation even here on the EAB. I do not feel there is any exaggeration on his part when he mentions the over enthusiasm of Amiga fans for the machine.

Every time the Amiga port is the superior one he has never failed to point it out.
I have been a Patreon of his show for a few years and having talked with him quite a few times I can tell you he really has nothing against the Amiga and knows the machine is superior to the ST.

As far as I am concerned, he strikes the right balance for each machine.
I wish the Amiga arcade ports were always the best of the computer ones but alas this is just not the case.

For context, consider how many people on the EAB think Shadow Of The Beast is a good game (when it is barely more than a tech demo) or that Super Hang-On with its shoddy frame rate and jerky opponents is a good port of the arcade.

When you think about it for a second it is pretty clear that many here are not exactly objective about the machine. This is what he is talking about.

But if you are objective, you have no reason to take that remark for yourself

Originally Posted by vulture

He's basically a mega drive fan boy and has an obvious problem with most euro systems, but especially the amiga. He's always been this way, but gone even more downhill lately, that's true.

This is just false.
For starters, he is from the UK and grew with Speccy, C64, Amstrad and Amiga so he knows what he is talking about.

Moreover he has oftentimes celebrated the ports to these machines as excellent. He often praises the C64 but underscores when the Speccy sometimes has a better port.

If he only loved the MegaDrive he would not so often complain that the Amstrad got shafted with a Spectrum port despite being a very good machine.

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

I'll port Rygar and Bomb Jack to the SNES, that'll piss him off.

btw... I've never watched his channel and don't intend to.

For the wrong reasons unfortunately.
It would be an excellent source of information for your ports.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by gimbal

I had no problems with that statement, I could place it in context. If you watch all of the other RetroCore videos, and by golly I have at least twice, then you will find that among the games reviewed which are games with many ports and thus not Amiga originals, the Amiga version quite often IS running behind on the others. I hear love for the Amiga in such a statement, because the Amiga version should be better than other home computer ports. But it frequently isn't.

Damn, you said it more eloquently and concisely than I did in almost a full page.

Thank you.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Well, I am as much of an Amiga fan as any other EAB dweller and I completely agree with Mark (the author of BOTP).

Well, I don't. He's saying this for shock value and to make this core audience of 16 bit console fans happy. Nothing else. Edit: to be clear here, I mean his statements about the community. I have no problems with his opinions on the games themselves, I might not always agree, but that is the nature of opinions.

As you pointed out, his gripe is not with the Amiga but with the fanboyism that accompanies its arcade conversions.
It is just a fact that most Amiga arcade ports are at best average but yet still enjoy a good reputation even here on the EAB. I do not feel there is any exaggeration on his part when he mentions the over enthusiasm of Amiga fans for the machine.

There are plenty of non-Amiga fanboys claiming absurd nonsense on his channel (and in the wider retro community). They never get called out by him in the same way. As such, I fully stand by my point: he very clearly does paint the Amiga community in a very different light than he does any other machine/community.

As for average ports being seen in a good light - again, this is the case for every retro community. I seriously wonder where people get the rather strange idea that the Amiga community does things oh-so-differently. It's just not the case. It happens all over. Every retro community has it's crazies, every retro community looks back fondly on games that were at best average. Same goes for fanboys and fanboyism - it happens in all retro communities and the Amiga one is not particularly different from others here.

---
Anyway, I wrote a whole bunch of extra stuff replying to segments of the rest of your reply that I just removed. The core of my argument is made above, the rest was mainly repeating it and it made the post long and unnecessarily antagonistic.

[britelite]

Originally Posted by roondar

He's saying this for shock value and to make this core audience of 16 bit console fans happy. Nothing else

Yeah, that must be it. It couldn't possibly be because Amiga fanboys can be bloody obnoxious (something very evident on this here forum).

[gimbal]

Fair enough.

Whether it is justified or not, I cannot say. I did not have any kind of similar experience myself in my little restricted corner of the world where only a very few family members and classmates had an Amiga, my "community" was very small. And not very passionate. Perhaps if I had frequented computer clubs and the like, my mileage may have varied.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by britelite

Yeah, that must be it. It couldn't possibly be because Amiga fanboys can be bloody obnoxious (something very evident on this here forum).

I've seen bloody obnoxious Atari ST fans, Amstrad fans, Sega fans, Nintendo fans, etc. The Amiga community is not any different. In fact, the whole point of my post was that it's not just Amiga fanboys who are like this, yet it is only Amiga fanboys only who get this treatment on his channel.

It's not at all unreasonable to point to this out. That said, I do agree my conclusion of why he does this is merely my opinion, not proven fact. I also agree that I did allow myself to get irritated by his way of speaking about this and perhaps even more about how this is being defended over here (for the reasons I outlined above - we're not worse than others, so let's not pretend we are). This has probably affected my posts on this matter.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

For context, consider how many people on the EAB think Shadow Of The Beast is a good game (when it is barely more than a tech demo) or that Super Hang-On with its shoddy frame rate and jerky opponents is a good port of the arcade.

Thank god. Finally someone else who thinks the Amiga version of Super Hang On is shit.

The intro music on that game though, is hands down, one of the best tunes ever.

[vulture]

@ReadOnlyCat

basically, what roondar said, double standards. His channel , his show, his way of doing things, no problem. Unsubscribed and stopped watching, such an easy solution. Fair enough I guess.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by roondar

I've seen bloody obnoxious Atari ST fans, Amstrad fans, Sega fans, Nintendo fans, etc. The Amiga community is not any different.

That's it. In fact, given the disproportinate console dominance in modern media, he should concentrate more on their rabid fanboyism (or better yet, the ignorance in regard to other platforms). But going against Sega/Nintendo would have rather huge impact on his view count.

And he's clearly biased in this vid, since he considers MD the best port ("this is when things start getting interesting", as if one of the best Amiga games wasn't interesting enough) even though it's a rather questionable claim. It's a bit faster on MD because of the NTSC thing, but Amiga one is also extremely playable and IMO, overall better (and trust me, despite my love for Amiga, I'm as platform agnostic as they come).

He also gives a pass to the rather awful C64/Gameboy efforts, even though it'd be really easy to criticise them too (weaker platform is no excuse). Worst of all though, was his initial claim that "in this day and age" S2 feels "twitchy" and has poor AI. Come again?

[manossg]

Originally Posted by roondar

Well, I don't. He's saying this for shock value and to make this core audience of 16 bit console fans happy. Nothing else. Edit: to be clear here, I mean his statements about the community. I have no problems with his opinions on the games themselves, I might not always agree, but that is the nature of opinions.
There are plenty of non-Amiga fanboys claiming absurd nonsense on his channel (and in the wider retro community). They never get called out by him in the same way. As such, I fully stand by my point: he very clearly does paint the Amiga community in a very different light than he does any other machine/community.

As for average ports being seen in a good light - again, this is the case for every retro community. I seriously wonder where people get the rather strange idea that the Amiga community does things oh-so-differently. It's just not the case. It happens all over. Every retro community has it's crazies, every retro community looks back fondly on games that were at best average. Same goes for fanboys and fanboyism - it happens in all retro communities and the Amiga one is not particularly different from others here.

I fully agree with mr. roondar.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by roondar

I've seen bloody obnoxious Atari ST fans, Amstrad fans, Sega fans, Nintendo fans, etc. The Amiga community is not any different. In fact, the whole point of my post was that it's not just Amiga fanboys who are like this, yet it is only Amiga fanboys only who get this treatment on his channel.

Originally Posted by dreadnought

That's it. In fact, given the disproportinate console dominance in modern media, he should concentrate more on their rabid fanboyism (or better yet, the ignorance in regard to other platforms). But going against Sega/Nintendo would have rather huge impact on his view count.

The community he refers to is the one of the 80s-90s with the ST-Amiga "wars" raging when we (and I say "we" because I was one of them) were claiming the Amiga being the most powerful machine (which was true) meant it had the best ports (which on average was (alas) false).

We were young, partially informed and rabbid, at least I was, no denying that.
If you guys were not like so then just assume he is talking about my past self.

About him being console biased, if he was that console biased, he would not bother:
- mentioning European computers (ZX Spectrum, CPC, sometimes Thomson MO5!)
- pointing out shoddy "Spectrum ports" on the CPC
- covering Euro only releases of C64 games
- pointing out great ports on the Speccy/CPC which he does with regularity

He makes no secret the fact that he likes and often prefers console games but 1) most of the time he is right and 2) this does not come with lack of love toward the computers themselves.

Originally Posted by dreadnought

And he's clearly biased in this vid, since he considers MD the best port ("this is when things start getting interesting", as if one of the best Amiga games wasn't interesting enough) even though it's a rather questionable claim.

If you re-watch the video you will be happy to notice that he does not make that claim.
"I think MD is the best version" does not mean in any way "the Amiga version was not interesting enough"

If anything, he is praising the Amiga version loud and clear (from the transcript):

[...] Speedball 2 on the Amiga is vastly superior to the Atari ST original.
In fact this is how I first was introduced to the game.
Yep, back in the day my friend and I would play this for hours on his Amiga.
This version features higher defined graphics, much better audio with loads of speech samples and smother scrolling for the most part.

Originally Posted by dreadnought

It's a bit faster on MD because of the NTSC thing, but Amiga one is also extremely playable

He agrees with you himself in the video.

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Thank god. Finally someone else who thinks the Amiga version of Super Hang On is shit.

We are not alone, a few others have so agreed in other arcade related threads on the EAB.
I played the game to completion back then because I loved the arcade and wanted to believe the Amiga port was good. This was actually quite a chore.

Even if I do not like the game, I do understand that people like it as-is. For the era it was probably the best bike racing game on the machine but as a port of the arcade it falls short considerably.