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Old 20 October 2017, 11:11   #441
drHirudo
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Originally Posted by Tsak View Post
- For the community as a whole, we need to make sure that we build a healthier environment for all those great things to happen and flourish. How we behave to each other and the level of tolerance and endurance we show is crucial (this stands true both for developers and public). Unfortunately the lack of those above is yet another reason that underminds the situation in the scene. For example, when a 9 year old pops up in the forum, eager to learn how to make games on Amiga (with the obvious lack of etiquette and naivity you WOULD expect from a 9 year old) and gets bashed 9 seconds later, this speaks volumes about the level of intolerance and toxicity towards creativity in our retro community. It's a rather extreme example (I know) but tells a very true, all too familiar story here.
That toxic attitude exists for long time ago (more than a decade). Probably because Amiga users were used to extremely good games for free (back from early 1990) and later the very good Aminet releases (full Point&Click adventures, Cannon Fodder clones etc), their expectations are pretty high and tolerance is very low.

Back in early 2000-ies I was developing a lot for the classic Amigas. Since I was very bad at graphics (my best was 8-bit quality gfx) and even worse at music, I had to find people for the graphics and the music. Okay, I found a young willing artist from Norway (Im>bE), who helped me a lot with the graphics and I used some music from demo scene artists (with permission from them). After months of hard work of coding, testing, putting everything together and making the best effort to make my games Enforcer hits free and as system friendly as possible, I started releasing Amiga games on Aminet. I knew they weren't the best ones, but I was improving over time and getting more and more satisfied while polishing the games, adding more features, levels, better graphics etc...

Then I released the game BoxWorld 2 and even it got featured as news on the amiga-news.de site. That was a pretty achievement for me and I was very happy. Until I've read the comments under the article http://amiga-news.de/de/news/comment...l?frm_start=30 that killed most of my future motivation for the Amiga. People complaining about the graphics - why not using graphic cards features, why not higher resolution etc. I wanted to make my games using as few resources as possible and even working on Amiga 500, while still compatible with graphics cards and 68060 processors. No point in using fast processors or graphics cards for games that will work on Amiga 500 fine. I wasn't expecting getting slammed for a game that was public domain. I couldn't even imagine what comments it would have been if I did the graphics by myself. Oh well whatever, the graphic artist told me to ignore the comments and that we shall continue making enjoyable games, but for me the Amiga world was not the same again. Later I bought AmigaOne and started mostly porting emulators, I've finished some older projects and eventually ported the games to MacOS X and PC (thanks SDL most of the code stayed from the Amiga), but there was no point for me in creating new games for Amiga anymore.
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Old 20 October 2017, 11:37   #442
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Originally Posted by drHirudo View Post
Until I've read the comments under the article http://amiga-news.de/de/news/comment...l?frm_start=30 that killed most of my future motivation for the Amiga.
Pfoah, ouch. Yeah i can totally understand that killing any and all motivation to continue a hobby.
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Old 20 October 2017, 12:17   #443
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Originally Posted by drHirudo View Post
Until I've read the comments under the article http://amiga-news.de/de/news/comment...l?frm_start=30 that killed most of my future motivation for the Amiga.
After reading those comments I can understand that this killed ANY motivation. But I really hope that people have changed since 2004! Games like Solid Gold or Tanks Furry would have been bashed, too, back then! But today the people are happy about every new game, even if it is small and/or somewhat "ugly" (in comparison to commercial games like Turrican, Chaos Engine and so on).

This is what I HOPE. Because I have a small and ugly puzzle game in the pipeline and hope that people don't kill me for releasing it for free on Aminet...
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Old 20 October 2017, 13:09   #444
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Btw, if somebody needs a pixeldude, and likes the stuff I did for Inviyya, drop me a line.
I am more than happy to help you out with graphics..
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Old 20 October 2017, 13:17   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drHirudo View Post
Back in early 2000-ies I was developing a lot for the classic Amigas. Since I was very bad at graphics (my best was 8-bit quality gfx) and even worse at music, I had to find people for the graphics and the music. Okay, I found a young willing artist from Norway (Im>bE), who helped me a lot with the graphics and I used some music from demo scene artists (with permission from them). After months of hard work of coding, testing, putting everything together and making the best effort to make my games Enforcer hits free and as system friendly as possible, I started releasing Amiga games on Aminet. I knew they weren't the best ones, but I was improving over time and getting more and more satisfied while polishing the games, adding more features, levels, better graphics etc...
Chips was a game I spent countless hours playing. Really enjoyed it. Must check out some of your other gems.
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Old 20 October 2017, 13:51   #446
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Chips was a game I spent countless hours playing. Really enjoyed it. Must check out some of your other gems.
Thanks. I am glad you had a good time with it.

Chips was a port from an Oric game that was based on the I.O. Silver for Apple II. The very first version I uploaded to Aminet was with the original Oric graphics - 8 colors, very blocky graphics and no music. Fortunately, Im>bE manged to deliver upgraded 16-bit graphics pretty fast (I think it was overnight), so I was able to re-upload it to Aminet, before more people download it. Music is THX (AHX) based, it's good thing that I found a clean way to use asm replayers in C source code that saved me lots of hours.

A game that I am proud of is King Kong. Graphics done in-house with a help from friend. Music by Mermaid (with her permission) again THX (AHX) based. I didn't dare back then to ask her for graphics, then it would have been more awesome looking.


[ Show youtube player ]

Edit: Added video of King Kong

Last edited by drHirudo; 20 October 2017 at 13:57.
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Old 20 October 2017, 14:59   #447
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That looks fun - where can I get it? Aminet?

As a user with a 68060 and (soon to be RTG) I kind of understand people's frustrations with simple 8-bit style releases, but I sure as hell would never bash someone for doing it. If it wasn't to my taste i'd just look elsewhere.

Sadly IMO it's one of the negatives of the internet age. It's far too easy to be negative when you don't have the ability to do better yourself. I think if we were still in an age where to post those kind of negative thoughts you had to write a letter and post it to a magazine, then the chances are good people wouldn't bother to.

In my working life I've always had the view that if you think someone's idea is bad then it's perfectly OK to say so, but you damn well better be able to follow up with a better idea. It's got me a long way and well respected. I think it's a similar principle here.
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Old 20 October 2017, 15:51   #448
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Originally Posted by MartinW View Post
That looks fun - where can I get it? Aminet?
Yes, Aminet - http://aminet.net/game/jump/KingKong.lha

Quote:
As a user with a 68060 and (soon to be RTG) I kind of understand people's frustrations with simple 8-bit style releases, but I sure as hell would never bash someone for doing it. If it wasn't to my taste i'd just look elsewhere.
By the time I already had Amiga 4000/040 with 16 MB RAM, but I wrote for Amiga 500 in mind, because that's where most users are. Even today I think the Amiga 500 is the most universal config.

Quote:
Sadly IMO it's one of the negatives of the internet age. It's far too easy to be negative when you don't have the ability to do better yourself. I think if we were still in an age where to post those kind of negative thoughts you had to write a letter and post it to a magazine, then the chances are good people wouldn't bother to.

In my working life I've always had the view that if you think someone's idea is bad then it's perfectly OK to say so, but you damn well better be able to follow up with a better idea. It's got me a long way and well respected. I think it's a similar principle here.
The Internet also had many positives. Without it I wouldn't have been able to get in touch with graphics and music artists and receiving bugreports. Also I was checking Aminet daily back then since one the most awesome Amiga games, demos and tools came to Aminet between 1997 and 2005. Games like
Turtleminator
[ Show youtube player ]
The Legend Of The Elves
[ Show youtube player ]
Escape
[ Show youtube player ]
Muscarine
[ Show youtube player ]
Starbase 13
[ Show youtube player ]
WiZiO
[ Show youtube player ]
Wiz2
[ Show youtube player ]
...the list is almost endless.
These and many, many other homebrew games is what made me wrote that the Amiga actually has the most impressive homebrew scene. Recently the development is not as big as back in late 1990-ies, but it's still the best platform to check for nice homebrew releases. No other retro platform has such diverse and fruitful homebrew scene as the Amiga, back then and NOW.
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Old 20 October 2017, 16:41   #449
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Originally Posted by drHirudo View Post
No other retro platform has such diverse and fruitful homebrew scene as the Amiga, back then and NOW.
Back then, sure, the proliferation of the PD disk catalogues was a joy to behold. But now? Nah, nowhere near.

As I often point out, the Speccy scene is putting out large amounts of new software (most of it extremely good, some of it not so good) - try searching on http://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/index.php for 2016 or 2017 - it puts the output of the Amiga scene to shame.

Of course, it does help that we have some very capable "game maker" apps out there that as well as running the creator on a stock spectrum, their output will also run on a stock Spectrum, which isn't the case with things like redpill et al.
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Old 20 October 2017, 17:08   #450
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Originally Posted by drHirudo View Post
The Internet also had many positives. Without it I wouldn't have been able to get in touch with graphics and music artists and receiving bugreports.
Of course. I didn't mean to imply the internet is a bad thing. Obviously there are far more positives to it than negatives. This discussion wouldn't exist for starters. There are a few games you've shown there that look interesting. I don't think I've really browsed Aminet for games, clearly I should.

I'm as guilty as many people however. I do struggle to see beyond poor graphics to the game itself. I'm well aware that this is wrong and I do try to be better about it. That Wiz2 is a classic example. Had I downloaded that myself I probably would have taken one look at the badly drawn title screen and there's a good chance I'd not have looked further. But watching 5 minutes of the gameplay it looks quite good and the graphics are considerably better in the game itself.

Time to browse Aminet I think!
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Old 20 October 2017, 17:09   #451
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Back then the PD scene was brilliant because people who made stuff they liked didn't have to face angry opinionated international nerds ranting about your shit on Internet forums. They had the option to go crazy with ideas and try what they wanted to do without worrying about "community backlash"or whatever.

My recommendation is to distance yourself/your project from the "online community" as much as possible until it's ready for release, and post-release, to take with a pinch of salt what people say about it.

Internet can be both a beautiful and a horrible thing.
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Old 20 October 2017, 17:59   #452
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Actually they were developing on their main system that still had a commercial life. Now the Amiga is too old and the 25 years old guy of 1995 is almost 50 now with some other responsibilities that didn't exist back then.
And not forget that most Amigas have hardware problems due to age, even if you want to use it to develop something or just play games. I have 2 A500s that had some problems and it cost me around 100 € to bring back to life just one of them and not just drop it to a garbage bin.
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Old 20 October 2017, 19:15   #453
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Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Back then the PD scene was brilliant because people who made stuff they liked didn't have to face angry opinionated international nerds ranting about your shit on Internet forums. They had the option to go crazy with ideas and try what they wanted to do without worrying about "community backlash"or whatever.

My recommendation is to distance yourself/your project from the "online community" as much as possible until it's ready for release, and post-release, to take with a pinch of salt what people say about it.

Internet can be both a beautiful and a horrible thing.
I made this mistake recently with my first ever Amiga project in any form. (extremely simple game). I released it initially only working on a A1200 not really because of speed issues, I just had a problem with getting it to boot from Kickstart 1.3. People complained because it was a simple game that I had not got to work on a A500.

Anyway I can't say it bothers me as the positive feedback far outweighed the negative, as with most things in life. You have to let those haters comments go over your head and not let it get you down.
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Old 20 October 2017, 20:18   #454
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The issues with Amiga development is it's quite a bit bigger in terms of project size. Often requires more than one person and takes 6months + to get anything running well, and that's before even graphics, sfx and music are even considered
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Old 20 October 2017, 20:31   #455
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I don't find any problem in people taking longer time to work on things, it makes total sense to me, but we live in times where people want absolutely everything right now, and that's sad. Even a lot of those of us who grew up in different times, have changed to this patience-lacking mindset.

It applies to both consumers and makers. People also want to get results to what they are making faster. We're in too deep into the whole "emotional retribution" scheme that "social" media threw us into.

But that's a rant for another time :P
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Old 20 October 2017, 21:00   #456
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Originally Posted by Akira View Post
I don't find any problem in people taking longer time to work on things, it makes total sense to me, but we live in times where people want absolutely everything right now, and that's sad. Even a lot of those of us who grew up in different times, have changed to this patience-lacking mindset.

It applies to both consumers and makers. People also want to get results to what they are making faster. We're in too deep into the whole "emotional retribution" scheme that "social" media threw us into.

But that's a rant for another time :P
http://explosm.net/comics/4729/
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Old 23 October 2017, 00:58   #457
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For my two-penneth.... I'd always say that the Amiga "scene" was always too Eletist from the start!

There were and are some incredibly clever and innovative people out there, but they always seemed (to me) to put down the "bedroom coders" with their attitude ...

for instance... "Call 555 5555 5555 (ElItE 0nLY)" etc

Why would most people call them if they were told they were probably inferior before first contact?

Prior to the Amiga, the home coders had a wonderful time sharing their efforts with their peers, however after the comms revolution in the 90's .. their efforts were largely ignored by the mainstream, which I think is a great pity.
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Old 23 October 2017, 03:00   #458
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I think there's a lot to be said for what volvo_0ne posted. I've been messing about writing bits and pieces for the Vectrex for about 3 or 4 years now (very on and off mind!). OK, it suffers from way too many experts thanks to the likes of YouTube and what have you, but when you actually start to talk to some of the well known names about the fact that you're doing stuff, by and large the whole thing is very positive and you are quite well encouraged.

Sure I get some strange remarks because I'm working in C and not ASM like almost everyone else is, but the proof is in the results, and I AM managing to get results. If only I could manage to carry some of these skills over to the Amiga. I will one day. At the end of the day as has been said already in this thread there is more than one side to this and what I'm learning on other systems is how to do the game things (engine logic I guess). Once I've got that I guess (hope!) I can bring that to this system. After all it's very different from the 25 years of coding in document management that I have.

And if only these people that moan about using C when I should be using ASM knew just how complicated it is to actually interface the two and make it work they'd probably shut up. So then why not use ASM? Well, when it comes to the game logic I can use familiar C syntax. I only need to worry about ASM for interfacing the two. By the time I've finished I'll probably know enough to do the next one in ASM if the need arises.

Sorry, went a little OT there
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Old 23 October 2017, 03:22   #459
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Originally Posted by volvo_0ne View Post
For my two-penneth.... I'd always say that the Amiga "scene" was always too Eletist from the start!

There were and are some incredibly clever and innovative people out there, but they always seemed (to me) to put down the "bedroom coders" with their attitude ...

for instance... "Call 555 5555 5555 (ElItE 0nLY)" etc

Why would most people call them if they were told they were probably inferior before first contact?

Prior to the Amiga, the home coders had a wonderful time sharing their efforts with their peers, however after the comms revolution in the 90's .. their efforts were largely ignored by the mainstream, which I think is a great pity.
Sorry chap, but I think you entirely misunderstand how "leet" and "Elite" were used back in the day.

If you were "Elite" you were part of the Amiga scene, piracy/cracking specifically, and were involved in that world.

If you were not "Elite", you were a lamer, i.e. someone who just played games, couldn't crack an egg let alone a copy protection, and relied on copies passed down from 8 other people before you got a copy.

Thats it!

It was never applied to "bedroom coders", because a lot of those guys were also in the demo scene which was linked to the piracy/cracking scene, and a lot of those guys, wrote the cracktros for the cracking groups to use
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Old 23 October 2017, 04:02   #460
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f you were not "Elite", you were a lamer, i.e. someone who just played games, couldn't crack an egg let alone a copy protection, and relied on copies passed down from 8 other people before you got a copy.
Lol... As one of those casual Amiga users/gamers I don't know how I feel about this. A bit lame.
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