Metro Siege: new arcade quality a500 brawler!

[Predseda]

Originally Posted by roondar

I just LOVE the idea of a brawler level on moving a subway.
So yeah, looking forward to more

Okay, in meanwhile you can play this

http://hol.abime.net/1522/screenshot

[roondar]

Somehow that doesn't seem to quite get the same reaction out of me

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by roondar

the idea of a brawler level on moving a subway. I know it's not entirely original, but I don't care - it's such a good idea

I also think the subway is cool, and it gives kind of homage to Final Fight, which is great.
However, they mentioned that 3th level will be in the train (same as FF), and I think that might be too much homage for FF.
Maybe cooler idea would be fighting on top of the train, while BG moves behind (it can be small parts of BG (just lights... or whatever)...

Disclaimer:
I am just throwing some ideas... none of this was to be taken as requests, or God forbid, demands... just my thoughts from time to time.
The game is already more then amazing as it is.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by DamienD

@Solo Kazuki; just drop it already. You've got the answer from Tsak:

Was it about CD version, or i miss something?
What You pointed is considering AGA version after releasing OCS and CD versions, at least it's how i understand this.

Anyway, I said my opinion and it's enough.

[Tsak]

Let's keep it cool guys

I think personally I can relate to both opinions. On the one hand it's true that the dev situation on Amiga is far from optimal due to fragmentation, different platforms, specs, systems and expectations. On the other hand it's only logical for Amiga people to have different wishes exactly due to this fragmentation. Good or not this isn't something that has a solution so we have to live with it.

One extra thing to note here. It's not all bad, meaning that the different hardware also gives much more room for Amiga devs to experiment. There's a whole array of game designs that hasn't really been explored on the platform and the fact that more advanced systems exist (from OCS to AGA to RTG to accelerators and beyond) means that devs still have plenty of room and options to go with.

[brett71]

Originally Posted by Tsak

Let's keep it cool guys

I think personally I can relate to both opinions. On the one hand it's true that the dev situation on Amiga is far from optimal due to fragmentation, different platforms, specs, systems and expectations. On the other hand it's only logical for Amiga people to have different wishes exactly due to this fragmentation. Good or not this isn't something that has a solution so we have to live with it.

One extra thing to note here. It's not all bad, meaning that the different hardware also gives much more room for Amiga devs to experiment. There's a whole array of game designs that hasn't really been explored on the platform and the fact that more advanced systems exist (from OCS to AGA to RTG to accelerators and beyond) means that devs still have plenty of room and options to go with.

Are there any original games out there made in the last 20-ish years or so that are designed for RTG systems, and would take full advantage of things such as a network card, 040/060/PPC CPU, and utilize 32+ MB of FAST mem as well as all of the CHIP the machine might have to offer?

[Tsak]

You mean games like Payback f.e.?
Yes there are. Not too many though.

[brett71]

Originally Posted by Tsak

You mean games like Payback f.e.?
Yes there are. Not too many though.

I realize that most of the people writing games these days tend to target the lowest common denominator, and I suppose this has been true throughout the Amiga's lifespan even when Commodore were still around, but it would be nice to see a game written with the higher-end in mind just once in a great while.

It's not hard to have a high-end equivalent machine through emulation these days either, so I don't know that the "lowest common denominator" argument holds as much water as it did when Amigas were only possible through hardware.

[Tsak]

Well, there was a period from 2000 to roughly 2010 (and a bit beyond) that there were only games released for accelarated or NGs Amigas. Only in recent years we see a resurgence of classic Amiga gaming.

Other than that, many classic Amiga users still use their machines and the vast majority is a500 users. It's one of the reasons the "lowest common denominator" argument still holds ground. And then there's the retro nostalgia factor as well.

[mcgeezer]

Originally Posted by Tsak

Well, there was a period from 2000 to roughly 2010 (and a bit beyond) that there were only games released for accelarated or NGs Amigas. Only in recent years we see a resurgence of classic Amiga gaming.

Other than that, many classic Amiga users still use their machines and the vast majority is a500 users. It's one of the reasons the "lowest common denominator" argument still holds ground. And then there's the retro nostalgia factor as well.

Hi Tsak,

Do you have any research to back up the A500 claim? It's a genuine question and I'm not trying to call you out on it.... it's just everywhere I look people seem to have AGA compatible machines. With that said, I don't think anyone has ever lost the appeal of the A500/OCS it's just that from what I can tell most Amigans in the scene seem to use expanded AGA hardware.

Would be great if you could share any data though?
Like I said - this isn't confrontational and I very much expect to be wrong... (I'm also happy to start a new thread around the question).

[Predseda]

Originally Posted by Tsak

Well, there was a period from 2000 to roughly 2010 (and a bit beyond) that there were only games released for accelarated or NGs Amigas. Only in recent years we see a resurgence of classic Amiga gaming.

Yes. Until 2000 OCS Amigas. 2000-2010 accelerated Amigas and RTGs etc. And almost NOTHING for unexpanded A1200.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

Hi Tsak,

Do you have any research to back up the A500 claim? It's a genuine question and I'm not trying to call you out on it.... it's just everywhere I look people seem to have AGA compatible machines. With that said, I don't think anyone has ever lost the appeal of the A500/OCS it's just that from what I can tell most Amigans in the scene seem to use expanded AGA hardware.

Would be great if you could share any data though?
Like I said - this isn't confrontational and I very much expect to be wrong... (I'm also happy to start a new thread around the question).

Nope, no hard data, it's just my general impression after many years in the scene. I already know many users (and even devs) who only have a500s but I also strongly believe there's a shadow figure of amiga users that hasn't passed beyond the entry level machines.

And then there's the hard fact that there are more a500 machines sold than a1200s (so somebody owns them). Although after all these years it's unclear which machines survived and are being used to this day.

Besides the above, my impressions come also from my dev experience so far. Much of the feedback we got f.e. for Worthy (posts, comments, mail e.t.c.) came from users who only owned a500 machines.

[alpine9000]

Someone did a poll on FB a while ago (2018)

AGA: 890
OCS/ECS: 1480

A500 if combined with A500+ was the most popular model (719), A1200 second with 553.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by brett71

I realize that most of the people writing games these days tend to target the lowest common denominator, and I suppose this has been true throughout the Amiga's lifespan even when Commodore were still around, but it would be nice to see a game written with the higher-end in mind just once in a great while.

While I tend to agreed that should be more AGA games (even I am A500 user), keep in mind that this genre (beat em ups) are totally neglected.
Apart from average Golden Axe, there are not one good beat em up on Amiga (even AGA), and everyone agreed that A500 is more then capable of great brawlers.
This game is huge step to improve that.

But for genres like platformers, or racing games, where we have a tons of great titles, I am all for AGA and high end Amiga's, and it would be interesting to see something like Rayman, or Pandemonium.

[nikosidis]

I understood that this game will be limited to 25fps and maybe that is more than enough. All the same I been wondering if with higher specs, CPU the fps could be set at 50?

It would be the same version, just a hardware detection loading the game.

[alpine9000]

Originally Posted by nikosidis

I understood that this game will be limited to 25fps and maybe that is more than enough. All the same I been wondering if with higher specs, CPU the fps could be set at 50?

It would be the same version, just a hardware detection loading the game.

One of my previous games worked as you suggested, however for Metro Siege even if a fast CPU let it run at 50fps (which is not guaranteed due to the amount of blitter and DMA load) we won’t be doing any other configurations.

The hard part will be finishing the game in a reasonable time, and adding different configurations complicates everything as well as adding new dimensions to the testing matrix.

We are doing everything to make sure we can finish which unfortunately means saying no to lots of cool potential features.

Once it’s finished, you never know.

[nikosidis]

Yes, I understand it might not be that easy. One thing that should be easy, but maybe not necessary is the music in the game. Some games like Uridium 2 detected if you had the typical 2MB config. If so, there where some extra gfx details and music in the game.
I know some games like a quite recent one called "Freds Journey" used a very low sample rate to fit the standard A500 1MB config. I heard the music before that conversion and it was better.

Just out of the blue I guess at least 50% that will buy the game play it with an FPGA solution or emulator. A lot of Amiga users upgraded in some way or already have A1200, A4000 etc. It is very possible around 75% who will buy the game have at least 2MB of RAM.

I just think it might be good to consider while making the game.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by alpine9000

We are doing everything to make sure we can finish which unfortunately means saying no to lots of cool potential features.

And that's perfectly fine...otherwise feature creep might set in. I'd much rather see it released sooner then later, and then you can think about adding stuff like weapons/50fps/platform improvements/etc for MS v1.1 or a sequel

[Predseda]

Originally Posted by alpine9000

We are doing everything to make sure we can finish which unfortunately means saying no to lots of cool potential features.

Okay, Metro Siege 2 in sight

Originally Posted by alpine9000

Just out of the blue I guess at least 50% that will buy the game play it with an FPGA solution or emulator. A lot of Amiga users upgraded in some way or already have A1200, A4000 etc. It is very possible around 75% who will buy the game have at least 2MB of RAM.

Could be interesting idea to join a survey to the shop, like "what will you play our game on? A500 / 1200 / emulation / whatever..."

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by nikosidis

Yes, I understand it might not be that easy. One thing that should be easy, but maybe not necessary is the music in the game. Some games like Uridium 2 detected if you had the typical 2MB config. If so, there where some extra gfx details and music in the game.
I know some games like a quite recent one called "Freds Journey" used a very low sample rate to fit the standard A500 1MB config. I heard the music before that conversion and it was better.

Just out of the blue I guess at least 50% that will buy the game play it with an FPGA solution or emulator. A lot of Amiga users upgraded in some way or already have A1200, A4000 etc. It is very possible around 75% who will buy the game have at least 2MB of RAM.

I just think it might be good to consider while making the game.

I don't want to sound like the negative Nancy again in this thread...

...but..

...from a coder's point of view the Amiga is already the machine with the most amount of "extra" work you have to invest by far, since there are a shitload of configs you have to take care of. Plus the hardware is a lot more complicated to code for than other systems, imo.

I don't know how many hours I spent taking care of stuff that will maybe bring in 10 to 15 more people playing (or even buying?) the game.

If I would do one thing different next time is that I'd say "this is an PAL A500 game. 512k/512k. You will need a joystick, keyboard and floppy drive. " and if people don't have that most basic of configs, then I am sorry, their computers are not what I am creating games for.


This weird attitude in the Amiga community really needs to stop.

Originally Posted by Tsak

Nope, no hard data, it's just my general impression after many years in the scene. I already know many users (and even devs) who only have a500s but I also strongly believe there's a shadow figure of amiga users that hasn't passed beyond the entry level machines.

And then there's the hard fact that there are more a500 machines sold than a1200s (so somebody owns them). Although after all these years it's unclear which machines survived and are being used to this day.

Besides the above, my impressions come also from my dev experience so far. Much of the feedback we got f.e. for Worthy (posts, comments, mail e.t.c.) came from users who only owned a500 machines.

Off course most "hardcore" users you meet in Forums and on conventions have an AGA machine, probably with accelerator cards equipped.

But most of those 25k people in the FB group, if they have Amigas at all, it will be that pretty standard A500 they had their youths. Most of these people don't care for Vampires, 060 cards, OS 3.1.4, and whatever.