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Old 06 October 2019, 13:04   #1
rabidgerry
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2 Button Joystick Question - Gloom

Hi, so I am keen to get stuck into the game Gloom and I want to use a joystick or a joypad. I read in the gloom manual

"To Play Gloom Using A Joystick

Move Forward Push joystick up
Move Backward Push joystick back
Rotate Left Push joystick left
Rotate Right Push Joystick right
Sidestep Left Hold down button two and push joystick left
Sidestep Right Hold down button two and push joystick right
Fire Plasma Cannon Push joystick button one"

So I went out and bought a quickshot joypad, with megadrive buttons on it as I heard this would work (knowing there would be a button with no use but at least I would have a 'B' fire button). And it does not work. All the extra button does is move forward, the same as what you get when you push up on the directional button. Does anyone know if this means there is something wrong with my pad or the game simply doesn't work with a two button joystick/joypad?

Are their any known two button joysticks/joypads that do work with this game?

Yes I know I could use a keyboard but I don't want to.

Thanks in advance.

I am looking at a quickshot Python BTW and tecnopus scorpion plus which both appear to have megadrive modes which I believe configure one of the fire buttons differently to allow for games such as Gloom and the extra control use.
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Old 06 October 2019, 22:14   #2
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I might have this wrong, but I seem to remember something about Megadrive pads made by Sega, in that they are different electrically to the third party Megadrive pads made by other manufacturers. I have a few Megadrive pads (all Sega) and they all work as two-button joysticks perfectly fine.
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Old 07 October 2019, 10:44   #3
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Megadrive pads in general are different from almost every other 9-pin D "Atari-style" controller as the Megadrive pinout is different. What you want is a controller that's suited to the Megadrive and Mastersystem - in Mastersystem mode it will work exactly as a 2-button Amiga pad.

Megadrive controllers and pads in Megadrive mode take their power from a pin on Paula, and not from the power pin. This isn't ideal, and might not be enough to power some pads which results in funny behaviour. If you want to use Megadrive pads reliably, build a small adaptor that swaps pins 5 and 7. If it still doesn't behave, disconnect controller pin 7 from Amiga pin 5 and connect it to Amiga pin 7 via a 1K resistor.
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Old 07 October 2019, 16:17   #4
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Well I was thinking since the button on my pad (which I'm going to identify as a mega drive pad) also acts the same as pushing forward or up couldn't I swap something inside to stop it doin that?<br />
<br />
Building an adapter and making mods is within my capabilities for sure but I wouldn't know how to come up with something by myself. I've only ever heard of a megadrive/Amiga adapter that is built with altering voltage as its primary objective as some people seem to think using a megadrive pad with Amiga is a hazard to their machine. Would this adapter be something similar?<br />
<br />
And the lazy me just wouldn't mind knowing what kind of joystick I need that allows for two independent for buttons? Do I need a joystick that has a selector for sega operation? Any examples? Would any joystick with the switch on it for Atari/commodore - sega - msx - amstrad work fine as an a/b operating joystick but with the selector in sega mode?

Last edited by rabidgerry; 07 October 2019 at 16:26.
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Old 07 October 2019, 16:53   #5
Glen M
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IMO the CD32 pad is the best for these games as strafing is (or can be) defined to the shoulder buttons. Its just a shame the gloom engine doesn't support circle strafing.
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Old 07 October 2019, 17:05   #6
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Yeah, if it has a button that doubles as up, it sounds like it's already got a modification or mode for running on an Amiga - that config is often used for playing traditional Amiga platformers on a pad where up is normally jump.

There's very little risk to the Amiga, but it's there. Most of the time it simply won't work properly. Here's a diagram I drew before for a very simple adaptor that locks an MD pad in 2-button mode: http://robthenerd.com/misc/md-adaptor3.jpg
The risk is much greater for the C64, where using a Megadrive pad can easily damage the machine.

As for what type of controller, well there are a few different ways of doing it, but the standard way is for button 2 to use pin 9 on the port, which is the right mouse button on the Amiga. The Sega Mastersystem uses this setup, so any Mastersystem pad or controller with a Mastersystem mode will work fine. Pin 9 for button 2 is also used by the Atari ST and Commodore 8-bits amongst others, so if you find any 2-button controller for any of those it will work.
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Old 07 October 2019, 21:52   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen M View Post
IMO the CD32 pad is the best for these games as strafing is (or can be) defined to the shoulder buttons. Its just a shame the gloom engine doesn't support circle strafing.

It probably is, but those pads cost a bomb and I'd need another adapter to get it working on my A1200.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
Yeah, if it has a button that doubles as up, it sounds like it's already got a modification or mode for running on an Amiga - that config is often used for playing traditional Amiga platformers on a pad where up is normally jump.

There's very little risk to the Amiga, but it's there. Most of the time it simply won't work properly. Here's a diagram I drew before for a very simple adaptor that locks an MD pad in 2-button mode: http://robthenerd.com/misc/md-adaptor3.jpg
The risk is much greater for the C64, where using a Megadrive pad can easily damage the machine.

As for what type of controller, well there are a few different ways of doing it, but the standard way is for button 2 to use pin 9 on the port, which is the right mouse button on the Amiga. The Sega Mastersystem uses this setup, so any Mastersystem pad or controller with a Mastersystem mode will work fine. Pin 9 for button 2 is also used by the Atari ST and Commodore 8-bits amongst others, so if you find any 2-button controller for any of those it will work.

So you think it's already been modded? Interesting. I opened it up and played about with a multimeter for a while trying to figure it out but it was useless I'm afraid. Can't read wiring or schematics. It doesn't look that complex, but I'm useless at that as I said.

Whilst I see master system controllers knockin about, I'm more of a joystick guy and it's a two button affair I really want. Now I can't say for sure, but I suspect those joysticks with the mini switch that states it can change from Atari to sega, I presume that would be sega master system??? I mean it would have to be with a two button stick since the megadrive would need three buttons. It would be just good to get that clarified. I don't want to end up with a joystick that the second fire button will end up making me go "forward" or "jump" like the pad I already bought which is the quickshot starfighter 3 for the megadrive.

I would love to mod the pad I already own, sometime I like to use pads and then sometimes back to a stick.
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Old 07 October 2019, 22:54   #8
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It probably is, but those pads cost a bomb and I'd need another adapter to get it working on my A1200.

Or get this adapter. Maps the CD32 buttons perfectly fine on any Sega 6-button pad.



http://melbourneconsolerepros.com/pr...roducts_id=141
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Old 07 October 2019, 23:02   #9
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CD32 pads are expensive and that adapter is as well. That's a lot of money for side step capability in one game.

I'm not going down the CD32 pad route.

Can't believe no one seems to know one way or other about the two button joysticks.

Despite this thread

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=83874

Daedalus actually answers some of what I am curious about here so thanks for that.

Quote:
Is the switch for setting Megadrive compatibility? Or for Mastersystem? If the A1200 had a problem with 2 button controllers, it would also have a problem right-clicking with the mouse. Mastersystem controllers are wired exactly like Amiga 2-button controllers so the switch should simply separate the two buttons.

Last edited by rabidgerry; 07 October 2019 at 23:24.
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Old 07 October 2019, 23:04   #10
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Roughly 20 pounds is expensive? Look at the silly prices for the real CD32 pad, which is an abomination anyway.
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Old 07 October 2019, 23:33   #11
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Roughly 20 pounds is expensive? Look at the silly prices for the real CD32 pad, which is an abomination anyway.
Oh I think I've misunderstood you . I thought that adapter allowed me to use a CD32 pad with an A1200. I thought you meant buy the adapter and CD32 pad. But I see where I went wrong now.

It actually allows sega megadrive pads to function on Amiga as cd32 is mapped. Well that is useful.

But I'd still rather use a two button joystick and pay £15 (the adapter will have a shipping charge to the UK I'm sure).

It would be great to know how to mod my existing pad that I talked about earlier and another Tecno plus pad I own that has two fire buttons (one is turbo fire)
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Old 07 October 2019, 23:36   #12
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Yep, and it works fine with all the WHDLoad patched games for the CD32 pad. So, the investment makes sense.
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Old 08 October 2019, 00:35   #13
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Yep, and it works fine with all the WHDLoad patched games for the CD32 pad. So, the investment makes sense.
ok ok it's on my want list. But I've done a bit more research and basically some of the sticks I have been looking at should fit the bill according to the "if they work with the master system they will work with the Amiga two button games".

So I shall see what happens as I just bought that tecno plus scorpion.

Question: Are Quickshot Tecno Plus and Archer all the same? They all look like rebadged versions of the same models of controllers.
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Old 08 October 2019, 11:03   #14
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It's likely that the stick you're talking about with a Sega mode is for the Mastersystem, as the Megadrive would need 3 buttons as you pointed out. But any stick with two buttons (that both operate as fire) would be possible to mod if you replace the cable with one that has pin 9 connected.

The CD32 pad also has a standard 9-pin connection and operates as a 2-button controller until CD32 mode is activated. They can be used directly by any Amiga model.
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Old 08 October 2019, 11:13   #15
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Originally Posted by rabidgerry View Post
Oh I think I've misunderstood you . I thought that adapter allowed me to use a CD32 pad with an A1200.)

No. CD32 joypad works with A1200 without any adapter. I don't know how can You get this idea because it's for me standard which was sadly not "forced" by Commodore itself. There are some A1200 games which support CD32 joypad control.

There are some ways to get joypad compatible with this standard, e.g. KTRL CD32+ joypad thread on EAB.
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Old 08 October 2019, 12:12   #16
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To answer your question directly the issue (as already alluded to ) is that the Megadrive pad is wired completely different than most any other 9 pin joypad/stick so personally for me I would advise you to stay away from them or if its all you have modify a spare Megadrive pad or built an adapter.

The Megadrive pad takes its 5v supply from pin 5 which is not used on most other "atari" controllers. So what you need to do is disconnect the wire from pin 5 and route a connection between 7 and 5. The megadrive controller requires voltage on both pins 5 and 7 to enable select high so you'll get up/down/left/right and buttons B and C as 1 and 2.

I'm not 100% sure of the voltage level required on pin 7 (pin 5 needs 5v) but I'd be confident its also 5v. I see Daedalus noted above in his diagram to add a 1k resistor on the 5v line to pin 7 so I'd take him at his word and do that.

If your joystick has a switch on it to select between megadrive and other the only way to really know whats going on is to open it up and go poking with you multimeter on continuity.

EDIT: actually pin 5 is mouse button 3 on the Amiga so I'd advise not trying to pull 5v from that to power the pad.
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Old 08 October 2019, 12:33   #17
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I'm not 100% sure of the voltage level required on pin 7 (pin 5 needs 5v) but I'd be confident its also 5v.
Yep, it's a logic input so 5V is ideal. In theory anything above about 2V should work, but with a 5V supply available, that's the way to go.

Quote:
I see Daedalus noted above in his diagram to add a 1k resistor on the 5v line to pin 7 so I'd take him at his word and do that.
Connecting pad pin 7 directly to 5V will work too, but I added the resistor to protect against shorts, just in case someone plugs in a controller that uses pin 5 as an output. It's rare, but the example you came up with of the 3-button mouse would be one case. Without the resistor, the middle button would short the 5V rail, at the very least resetting your machine and possibly causing motherboard damage. Of course, plugging such a controller into the adaptor wouldn't make sense, but no harm being safe

Quote:
actually pin 5 is mouse button 3 on the Amiga so I'd advise not trying to pull 5v from that to power the pad.
Yeah, it's held high by Paula in the same way as pin 6 for button 2 / right mouse button. It can supply a couple of mA, but it's not designed for that and I'd also advise not powering anything from it.
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Old 08 October 2019, 16:05   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidgerry View Post
Hi, so I am keen to get stuck into the game Gloom and I want to use a joystick or a joypad. I read in the gloom manual

"To Play Gloom Using A Joystick

Move Forward Push joystick up
Move Backward Push joystick back
Rotate Left Push joystick left
Rotate Right Push Joystick right
Sidestep Left Hold down button two and push joystick left
Sidestep Right Hold down button two and push joystick right
Fire Plasma Cannon Push joystick button one"

So I went out and bought a quickshot joypad, with megadrive buttons on it as I heard this would work (knowing there would be a button with no use but at least I would have a 'B' fire button). And it does not work. All the extra button does is move forward, the same as what you get when you push up on the directional button. Does anyone know if this means there is something wrong with my pad or the game simply doesn't work with a two button joystick/joypad?

Are their any known two button joysticks/joypads that do work with this game?

Yes I know I could use a keyboard but I don't want to.

Thanks in advance.

I am looking at a quickshot Python BTW and tecnopus scorpion plus which both appear to have megadrive modes which I believe configure one of the fire buttons differently to allow for games such as Gloom and the extra control use.
Do you have to select 2-button Joystick from the opening Gloom Menu? I actually have that game but haven't played it for a while now.
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Old 08 October 2019, 16:23   #19
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I didn't realise the cd32 pads where the same 9 pin connector. Doesn't matter anyways as I won't be getting one. In future I think I will stay away from megadrive related controllers, but mastersystem controllers I will be keeping an eye out for.

So I'm going to try and mod both pads I already own. I'll start with the megadrive esque joypad. I'll take some pics and show everyone what's going on inside it. I think I can disconnect the wire on pin five no problem, bit I cannot trace where button b goes to. It is obviously operating pin 2 somehow. I was also thinking if the pad is modified I might want to keep button b as a jump button. However I'd want button c to act as the second/alternative fire for side stepping in gloom instead. Currently I think button c does nothing for the Amiga, but I'd need to get it hooked up to pin 9 to get it to do what I want. Currently unable to identify which pin is which on the PCB.
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Old 08 October 2019, 16:27   #20
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No Paul1981, there is only option for joystick 1,2 mouse then two options for cd32 pads. So according to the manual the side step capability must be included within the joystick option.
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