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Old 19 September 2019, 17:04   #41
Anubis
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At least, I am not the only one who see danger behind 'services' like this one. I know what happened before, in first months after gog.com started, and soon as I saw more 'get game on gog.com' links, I decided not to support that non sense.

I would not care if they left people willing to go through trouble setting emulator / game alone, but as soon as site offers any of games from their list, they get email from them.

To all of you gog.com supporters, you are killing emulation and dos gaming with every purchase @ gog.com. Same will happen with this service.
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Old 19 September 2019, 17:20   #42
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@SyX and Anubis.
I couldn't agree more.
If this #&ยค/$ game streaming trend continues, which I'm afraid it'll do, the future looks bleak.
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Old 19 September 2019, 18:15   #43
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To all of you gog.com supporters, you are killing emulation and dos gaming with every purchase @ gog.com. Same will happen with this service.
So true, after that site was launched in 2008, dosbox development was freezed fully.

We have had only two 0.01 releases of dosbox in 11 years!?!?!

Coincidence or not, gog hurt the main dos emulator.
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Old 19 September 2019, 23:28   #44
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Well, i am one of this "public small group" and i have not been contacted at all.

Sure, my slaves are not the most interesting, spanish fiction interactive games and a few bug fixes in a few random slaves. But i am not giving my permission to use them in a retrogaming streaming service, because those kind of services are a threat against our hobby.

First, i don't think that a retrogaming streaming service is a bad idea per se, although i prefer infinitely more quality physical releases as "SNK 40th Anniversary"; bring me more like this, but with Amiga games and i will buy ALL.

But this project "anststream", that they call the "netflix of retrograming", is based in a technology similar to the Google Stadia and other game streaming services, that means you are using a video player that answer a keyboard/joystick events and the games only live in the company servers.

For me the problem is not the latency problem or that a 512 KBs game now is going to use gigabytes of video streaming. The thing is worrying me is about what is going to happen with all the sites that are storing the work that this community has been making along those years in preservation, patching and documentation of games and the rest of the software...

And this is the most important part of the fun that this hobby brings to me, and because that i am getting very pessimistic about the future of retrogaming with the rising of services like this.

One thing, the excuse about emulators are difficult to use or configure is BULLSHIT. If you are interested in something, at least you could take the time of trying to understand it, read manuals and ask for help in the forums.

And if after all that, somebody thinks that emulators are impossible to use, well i offer my time to make a package that is easy to use for that person.

But use that excuse for justify those services is totally wrong, it is the same that if i say that i want to play a musical instrument, but instead of getting lessons and work hard trying to learn... the solution is to put an mp3 player inside of the musical instrument and click a button :P

Sorry, if you want to destroy the future of our hobby, go ahead, but not me.
Well said.
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Old 20 September 2019, 23:28   #45
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Originally Posted by SyX View Post
Well, i am one of this "public small group" and i have not been contacted at all.

Sure, my slaves are not the most interesting, spanish fiction interactive games and a few bug fixes in a few random slaves. But i am not giving my permission to use them in a retrogaming streaming service, because those kind of services are a threat against our hobby.

First, i don't think that a retrogaming streaming service is a bad idea per se, although i prefer infinitely more quality physical releases as "SNK 40th Anniversary"; bring me more like this, but with Amiga games and i will buy ALL.

But this project "anststream", that they call the "netflix of retrograming", is based in a technology similar to the Google Stadia and other game streaming services, that means you are using a video player that answer a keyboard/joystick events and the games only live in the company servers.

For me the problem is not the latency problem or that a 512 KBs game now is going to use gigabytes of video streaming. The thing is worrying me is about what is going to happen with all the sites that are storing the work that this community has been making along those years in preservation, patching and documentation of games and the rest of the software...

And this is the most important part of the fun that this hobby brings to me, and because that i am getting very pessimistic about the future of retrogaming with the rising of services like this.

One thing, the excuse about emulators are difficult to use or configure is BULLSHIT. If you are interested in something, at least you could take the time of trying to understand it, read manuals and ask for help in the forums.

And if after all that, somebody thinks that emulators are impossible to use, well i offer my time to make a package that is easy to use for that person.

But use that excuse for justify those services is totally wrong, it is the same that if i say that i want to play a musical instrument, but instead of getting lessons and work hard trying to learn... the solution is to put an mp3 player inside of the musical instrument and click a button :P

Sorry, if you want to destroy the future of our hobby, go ahead, but not me.
Dude, you were not contacted because none of the stuff you did is licenced by them.

It really is as simple as that, and if you dont want your stuff used if they licence those games from the copyright holder, then quite easy, someone else will rewrite the install so they can use it
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Old 21 September 2019, 00:08   #46
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Dude, you were not contacted because none of the stuff you did is licenced by them.

It really is as simple as that, and if you dont want your stuff used if they licence those games from the copyright holder, then quite easy, someone else will rewrite the install so they can use it
Of course, and as i said, the slaves that i made or fixed are not the most interesting for the "general public" and surely those simply slaves can be remade in 5 minutes for people like you.

Is it so hard to do things in a decent way? Only need to send an email to every volunteer, asking if they would agreed to their work being used in the future in an streaming service; even if their work is not going to be interesting now, nobody knows what could happen in a far future.

But not try to get the focus away with my specific case, because that is not the problem that we are trying to explain and talk here. This service goes against our hobby, and you can try to sell the idea with all the sugar that you want, but this will never be a positive thing. This is not the first time that a "bad" decision has hurt deeply the community...

And for the last, let me return to the specifics, because i loved your message that "i don't give a shit about the time that you used in making those slaves, because if you don't think like us or do exactly like we want to do... well, we will rewrite them for erasing your work".

Don't worry, Dude! From now, i will use my free time more wisely. Go ahead and sell your soul for a few pennies

Last edited by SyX; 21 September 2019 at 00:19.
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Old 21 September 2019, 12:06   #47
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Of course, and as i said, the slaves that i made or fixed are not the most interesting for the "general public" and surely those simply slaves can be remade in 5 minutes for people like you.

Is it so hard to do things in a decent way? Only need to send an email to every volunteer, asking if they would agreed to their work being used in the future in an streaming service; even if their work is not going to be interesting now, nobody knows what could happen in a far future.

But not try to get the focus away with my specific case, because that is not the problem that we are trying to explain and talk here. This service goes against our hobby, and you can try to sell the idea with all the sugar that you want, but this will never be a positive thing. This is not the first time that a "bad" decision has hurt deeply the community...

And for the last, let me return to the specifics, because i loved your message that "i don't give a shit about the time that you used in making those slaves, because if you don't think like us or do exactly like we want to do... well, we will rewrite them for erasing your work".

Don't worry, Dude! From now, i will use my free time more wisely. Go ahead and sell your soul for a few pennies
Lets get one thing straight right from the off.

The ONLY people that were contacted were those who we knew had installs written that Anstream wanted to use. Had any of your installs been requested, you would have been contacted.

As none of your installs were used or requested, there was no need to contact you. If that changes in the future, and one of your installs is requested, then you will be contacted.

Sending out an email getting peoples hopes up of future monies is not the way to go about things.

You feel put out that you were not contacted, you shouldn't be.

Secondly, what Antstream are doing has absolutely NO bearing or what other people do.

Antstream have licenced over 100 Amiga games from their copyright holders which they are fully within their rights to do.

Not only that, they have licenced WHDLoad from Bert, and furthermore have also licenced the WHDLoad installs that are relevant to the games they have licenced from various copyright holders.

Antstream are not compelled nor do they have any authority to police other peoples sites. The copyright holders of the relevant games might feel the need to, because as we all know, if you don't enforce your copyright, then expect to lose it as you did nothing to protect it.

And guess what? They are fully entitled to protect their copyright.

Make no mistake, repositories of old Amiga games, Megadrive, SNES etc, etc on the internet are illegal, its just that the various copyright holders haven't done anything about it.

What this sounds to me, is that you personally don't want the situation to change, because right now you can download whatever you want from whatever format you want for free, and you don't want that to change.

Just so we're clear, I also like to do that, but I also accept that if a copyright holder wants their copyrighted material removed, then thats just the way it is.

We have that situation here on EAB. No APC or TCP Amiga software is allowed to be stored on the file server.

Why?

Because the copyright holder is fully prepared to act on its distribution.

Guess what?

EAB abides by that by not allowing it on the forum.

No-one is selling their soul for a few pennies, they are being reasonably recompensed for their code that enables their use with WHDLoad, and which frankly, Antstream simply couldn't use Amiga titles without.

IF any of your slaves are requested in the future, you will be notified, and if you still assert that you don't want them used, then that is absolutely fine and your choice, and none of your code will be used.

However, you have to understand that doesn't stop the title being used, and one of us rewriting the install isn't a "fuck you" to you, its just the way it has to be.

No-one is erasing your work, your installs will still remain on the WHDLoad site, no-one will physically EVER replace your entire installs for another one.

As for using your time more wisely, its a nice jab, but your last install was 7 years ago, I think its safe to say you're doing that already

If this thread can divert back towards a little less hostility, that would be good
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Old 21 September 2019, 17:52   #48
Anubis
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So we can assume that 100+ games will be probably threaten just like APC or TCP here on EAB and rest of the internet?! How is that gonna help scene and community? This is gonna screw amiga emulation the same gog screwed DOS and some amiga stuff, but at larger level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Antstream have licenced over 100 Amiga games from their copyright holders which they are fully within their rights to do.

Not only that, they have licenced WHDLoad from Bert, and furthermore have also licenced the WHDLoad installs that are relevant to the games they have licenced from various copyright holders.

Antstream are not compelled nor do they have any authority to police other peoples sites. The copyright holders of the relevant games might feel the need to, because as we all know, if you don't enforce your copyright, then expect to lose it as you did nothing to protect it.
You must known that you are wrong, just don't like to see it, yet. GOG has the same license for old games and yes, as soon as they acquired license, the would contact all abandoware sites with threat of shutting them down if 'now their' games were not removed.

The same shit will happen here, and this time you are part of it.

Thank you for legal explanation about software. It sounds ironic when you talk about it.

Last edited by Anubis; 21 September 2019 at 18:15.
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Old 21 September 2019, 18:09   #49
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So we can assume that 100+ games will be probably threaten just like APC or TCP here on EAB and rest of the internet?! How is that gonna help scene and community? This is gonna screw amiga emulation the same gog screwed DOS and some amiga stuff, but at larger level.

It sounds funny and ironic when Galahad writes about legality of software. What was the price for icon like you?
Who is going to threaten like APC and TCP here on EAB?

Whilst some of these old game titles are being licenced by Antstream, no copyright holder is rubbing their hands with glee at how much money they are making because of it.

It doesn't matter if it helps the scene and community, in fact it will likely be invisible, because the majority of those that enjoy old Amiga stuff through emulation will have absolutely ZERO need for a solution like Antstream.

In fact, other than as a curiosity, i'd be amazed if more than 20 people from EAB as an example, paid for Antstream subscription, because they understand how to get the games and how to play them without a laggy streaming service.

For those that know what they are doing and can work an emulator with ease, Antstream will affect them ZERO and life will continue for them unabated.

Whilst it might sound funny about me waffling on about software legality, just because we all download it for free, doesn't mean it doesn't still technically belong to someone, we're just largely lucky that most of the Amiga copyright holders don't seem to want to do anything about it, but there there should be no expectation that it will be like that forever.

Lets see if Antstream has any longevity before we start worrying about their effect on copyright holders, i've read the reviews of Antstream and i've yet to read a positive one
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Old 21 September 2019, 18:18   #50
Anubis
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Lets see if Antstream has any longevity before we start worrying about their effect on copyright holders, i've read the reviews of Antstream and i've yet to read a positive one
Since last time we did something like that, all abandoware sites got 'buy @ gog.com'. We have some experience how this will go, if it finds its ground.

If someone is not sure how to emulate amiga game, just go to https://thecompany.pl/ and get damn exe.
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Old 21 September 2019, 18:29   #51
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Since last time we did something like that, all abandoware sites got 'buy @ gog.com'. We have some experience how this will go, if it finds its ground.

If someone is not sure how to emulate amiga game, just go to https://thecompany.pl/ and get damn exe.
Firstly, its bad forum etiquette to go back and edit quite comprehensively a previously answered post, please stop doing that, because now it looks like i've ignored half your points!

Antstream own the licence to stream X amount of Amiga titles. They are not SOLE licencees of those games. ANYONE can licence those games legally from the copyright holders.

Antstreams job is to stream these games, thats where their job ends.

It is the COPYRIGHT HOLDERS job to police other websites if they want to enforce their copyright on their IP, NOT Antstreams.

I'm not quite sure why this confusion exists. Gog exists to SELL games, Antstream is selling a streaming service, their objectives are entirely different.

Sega has just released the Megadrive/Genesis Mini.... yet I see all the same ROM sites are still up and untouched by this.

And again, you make some large assumptions as to whether Antstream will be successful....... and yet i've yet to see a glowing review of them.

We are at an impasse Anubis, you don't agree with me, and I certainly see things differently from you.

Are we done now? Or do we need to repeat key talking points over and over?
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Old 21 September 2019, 19:48   #52
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It is the COPYRIGHT HOLDERS job to police other websites if they want to enforce their copyright on their IP, NOT Antstreams.
Just as I've said, not case with GoG and will not be case with this, as soon as their subscription does not meet planned requirements.


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I'm not quite sure why this confusion exists. Gog exists to SELL games, Antstream is selling a streaming service, their objectives are entirely different.
How they will get around business is probably going to be very similar.


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Sega has just released the Megadrive/Genesis Mini.... yet I see all the same ROM sites are still up and untouched by this.

And again, you make some large assumptions as to whether Antstream will be successful....... and yet i've yet to see a glowing review of them.
We lost quite few big sites in past year, didn't you notice?



Quote:
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We are at an impasse Anubis, you don't agree with me, and I certainly see things differently from you.

Are we done now? Or do we need to repeat key talking points over and over?
You can be wrong, don't worry, we are all entitled to our opinions, no matter how wrong they are.
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Old 21 September 2019, 20:42   #53
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Just as I've said, not case with GoG and will not be case with this, as soon as their subscription does not meet planned requirements.



How they will get around business is probably going to be very similar.



We lost quite few big sites in past year, didn't you notice?




You can be wrong, don't worry, we are all entitled to our opinions, no matter how wrong they are.
Gog is not Antstream, the two have differing aims. One sells games, one sells a streaming service... not the same.

And frankly, i'd be critiquing how Gog had any right to demand anything from anyone.

You also have no proof that they will operate the same.

Lost a few sites yet lots remain, same Playstation stuff, same SNES stuff, same NES stuff, same Megadrive stuff.... and yet all of the copyright holders of these Mini machines have done nothing.

Your supposition doesn't equate me being wrong. You still can't seem to grasp how Gog and Antstream have entirely different models of business.

We're not going to agree and i'm not going to keep on repeating myself.
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Old 22 September 2019, 02:40   #54
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And frankly, i'd be critiquing how Gog had any right to demand anything from anyone.
Yet, that is what happened to all DOS abandoware sites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
You also have no proof that they will operate the same.
Just talking from experience with gog.com.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Your supposition doesn't equate me being wrong. You still can't seem to grasp how Gog and Antstream have entirely different models of business.
What that has to do with any of this?


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We're not going to agree and i'm not going to keep on repeating myself.
I know, at some point you will give up.
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Old 22 September 2019, 10:27   #55
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Everyone loves a good debate/arguement but it's pretty clear that this is going to affect no one. In your worst case scenario a few sites might say play it here (unlikely) but there will still be 20 sites with the stuff still readily available.

You can download just about every dos game ever written from the internet archive, gog don't seem to care.

Noobs having an easier way to play is no bad thing if they are willing to pay for it. It's not going to change what others do.

Not every new development is doom and gloom, sometimes its not going to make any difference what so ever.
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