Deliplayer VS WinUAE

[killergorilla]

Nice one mate, works a treat here!

[Photon]

Originally Posted by Hungry Horace

if you compose your own music on the original hardware, as i do, you too would be able to spot the discrepancies.

as has been said, with winuae it's usually timing, with deliplayer its usually not -quite- doing the commands right. I still usually go for the later though.

but i agree, most people wont know the difference.


and MP3'ing the modules will -definately- sound different, although if it's played from the original hardware, it's probably the best "casual" solution, but no good if you are still working on the music and simply wnat to listen to the current version.

Haven't noticed any timing issues in WinUAE, but I play modules there by loading the correct tracker, then loading the module.

And yeah, somehow DeliPlayer must correctly detect which format and select the exact Protracker version. ($Exx-commands, vibrato amplitude, ...)

So there's 2 sides to it - interpretation of the module data, and emulating the sound hardware.

(Sorry you probably had planned to do it this way Toni, but maybe someone else can test for you?)
How about sampling Amiga output from a tracker (same tracker module was made for), then doing the same in WinUAE and sampling that?

Then match the start and end - if start point matches but not endpoint, it has wrong timing.

When timing matches, invert one wav and mix them. If you end up with a flat line, you've succeeded

But probably it's impossible to achieve a flat line, equipment will distort the sound (very slightly). Maybe log the digital output of the Amiga, match with wav output from WinUAE, then add LED filter?

[alexh]

Originally Posted by OddbOd

Try my stripped down cygwin build, it's a little quirky so let me know how you get on.

I managed to get a pre-compiled version of XMMS (a GUI based media player which can take UADE as a plugin) to run in the Cygwin environment.

ftp://sunsite.dk/projects/cygwinports/release/xmms/

I was unable get UADE to work as a plugin though.

I'm not quite sure exactly how much of Cygwin I needed to get it to work, I just installed the standard setup.exe

Do you think you could get it to work as a minimal install? I know it is a lot to ask.

[Hungry Horace]

Originally Posted by Photon

Haven't noticed any timing issues in WinUAE, but I play modules there by loading the correct tracker, then loading the module.

simply playing back some of my heavier sample and/or external midi based OctaMED tracks within Octamed, it is not uncommon for me to find a 1 BPM drift on WinUAE compared with real hardware. This is quite a lot, but can probably be reduced with a more 'sound orientated' WinUAE setting.

Also, try triggering samples via the keyboard, and you should easily notice a delay on the timing. It's not so much WinUAE itself's fault, it's just a typical side-effect of emulation as far as i'm aware.

[heavy]

uade is very interresting
I'm working on a little prog for playing exotic mods with Sc68 (http://sc68.atari.org) : works fine with many formats.
But I have often timing issues, no sound or bugs with formats like SoundMon (alien breed menu), BenDaglish, DW and some customs.

I found many sources of Eagle/Deliplayer conversions from Wanted Team, and tried to adapt them : not always with success.
I already adapted 100+ mods without problems. But I failed with TFMX or octaMed replay routines...

I'm searching more informations about these replayers and how to fix them.
thanks

[alexh]

Wanna here a strange, morbid story?

I was telling everyone "I read the author of sc68 was murdered!" about this time last year.

It turns out I had got mixed up

What I had actually read was:"The author of m68k was murdered".

Andreas Wahlin was horribly knifed in the back while waiting for a tram in Feb last year, the police thought he was murdered by a drug addict just for his laptop.

http://www.atarilegend.com/contact/andreas.php

Horrible story, but I'm glad to see you are still alive and kicking

[heavy]

?!?
I drop

($#*% don't understand)

[Toni Wilen]

I thought the topic was only about listening to Paula audio.

No MIDI, no music creation, no something totally offtopic either

Properly timed MIDI probably needs more direct way than current serial port emulation. (but I don't have any MIDI hardware and I am not really interested in MIDI either)

[OddbOd]

Originally Posted by alexh

I was unable get UADE to work as a plugin though.

That doesn't surprise me very much as the program and plugin will have been compiled against different versions of Cygwin, you can't just mash different builds together and expect them to work

Originally Posted by alexh

I'm not quite sure exactly how much of Cygwin I needed to get it to work, I just installed the standard setup.exe

Yeah the standard install is pretty minimal, fortunately because my ISP has a local Cygwin mirror I could just keep installing stuff until UADE compiled correctly. After that I just stripped out the bits that weren't required for it to run.

Originally Posted by alexh

Do you think you could get it to work as a minimal install? I know it is a lot to ask.

I'll give it a go, but be forewarned, it's not something I'm prepared to maintain on an on-going basis for two reasons mainly because XMMS is dead (under Linux I use Audacious) but also because it falls outside my orignal requirements of a small, simple, commandline based, old-school music player.


Would a mod please split the UADE stuff off this thread as it's in danger of becoming a shambles. Ta.

[Hungry Horace]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Properly timed MIDI probably needs more direct way than current serial port emulation. (but I don't have any MIDI hardware and I am not really interested in MIDI either)

fair enough, but maybe some of your users are interested - and there is nothing wrong with open discussion

anyway, i wasnt actually referring to the timing of the MIDI, but just citing that some of the MEDs i'd be playing back might be a bit heavier (i.e more tracks) becuase they also have MIDI tracks on them, even if i'm not outputting it. I was still referring in my post to the timing of the paula audio.

You already said yourself that one would get a better output when not worrying about the syncronisation between sound and picture, which is certainly true and has an effect in what i was talking about.

as i mentioned before sometimes even just audio playback results in a different BPM being used to the original source, despite using the same program for harware-creation and emulation-playback (OctaMED in this example) - this is hardly off-topic imho!

[andreas]

Wow, people talking about sound accuracy!
That is MY topic! As usual, I have been a little bit quicker and tested around a little some moons before

Re-read my thread:

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=23756

This was about my A1000 playing track #04 from Lotus I EXACTLY in speed with WinUAE; but Deliplayer was 1/3 BPM too (?) fast! (IIRC the track in question is 142 BPM)

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by alexh

You da man! Works great. Very small install.

I had a minor bug that something else I was running was using an older version of Cygwin1.dll, but I quit and it worked fine.

Now if you could add CygwinX and XMMS this would kill off my dependency on deliplayer.

XMMS? Upgrade to audacious. Based on xmms sources, but a huge improvement. Sounds better, many more features, and rewritten for GTK2.

[alexh]

I don't mind which GUI it is, as long as it works in Windows, with a minimal Cygwin installation.

For the time being I am happy using the CLI version.

[OddbOd]

@alexh: After a few false starts I'm getting there....slowly. Thanks for the pointer to cygwin-ports because I wouldn't have ever gotten this far on my own.



More to come once I untangle the mess from my Cygwin install

Originally Posted by StevenJGore

But are these "inaccuracies" anything that can actually be distinguished by the human ear? Could a blindfolded Amigan really tell the difference between WinUAE, Deliplayer, and a real Amiga?

I'm asking a genuine question here, I'm not saying that there isn't a difference!

Steve.

Absolutely. Merely compare the output of emulated Amiga 1200 compared to Amiga 500. The Amiga 1200 version will sound a lot brighter because Commodore omitted a lowpass filter on the output circuitry.

I realize this isn't exactly what you asked. All I'm saying is that there is a difference. The difference can be summarized as follows: most amiga mod playback programs before UADE thought about the sample playback problem as *interpolation* problem. The mod specifies a sample with output values A and B at times t1 and t2, and you need a sample for a point of time in between. So people interpolated between A and B to find out an approximation of the value for the point in between.

UADE does no interpolation whatsoever. UADE produces audio stream at Paula clock rate, 3.54 MHz, which is known more or less exactly, and *resamples* that audio stream to the playback frequency. This change of focus means that the output is just a signal-theory problem rather than a guess between different interpolation algorithms, all which sound wrong because interpolation is the wrong way to try to solve the problem.

Once a good basic output was derived, simulation of the further analog processing circuitry such as the "LED filter" and the fixed 5 kHz lowpass filter for Amiga 500 were a relatively simple matter. The parameters for those digital models were verified against high-quality (96 kHz, 24-bit) samplings of two Amigas.

[alexh]

Originally Posted by OddbOd

More to come once I untangle the mess from my Cygwin install

Looking forward to it.

Maybe I'll find time for a UADE port to PA-Player (XBMC) one of these days.