English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Coders > Coders. General

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 08 September 2017, 15:24   #181
clebin
Registered User
clebin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinW View Post
I just had a quick nose at that cocos2d. I think I know where all the crappy games the Mrs plays on her iPad came from now
Haha, I released my own crappy iPhone game using Cocos2d back in 2010. I've got an HTML5 version somewhere written in Cocos2d-html5. (SheepFarmer 2049er) Cocos2d is a nice library but back then they broke API compatibility with every release. Cocos2d-x is probably a lot better now. Sorry for off-topic.
clebin is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 08 September 2017, 17:44   #182
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 18,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsak View Post
Isn't Vampire compatible, accessible or powerful enough for any 68k coder to make a game similar in features or performance to -say - super meat boy, shovel knight, limbo, hotline miami, braid or spelunky f.e.?
Yes, of course it seems Vampire could make games like that possible. But the problem is what I mentioned before: making all the resources (graphics, music, level design) for such games, is a task too great for most anyone already involved on this little scene to take on their own, and usually another point against making the effort, is that all that work will usually be for no monetary return, making it a very hard choice to take.
Forming a team to work together in this community seems like a herculean task, and even if you do, it's still a LOT of work by each party.

If someone is willing to take the time and effort necessary to build a game like Hotline Miami, they will probably try to do so full time and on a platform where they can sell it. Amiga isn't that platform.

Pixel graphics might seem like "the way back" but they actually require a LOT more work than 3D assets nowadays. You can cook up a game in Unity quickly, using 3D assets you easily build or find around, and it could just work (there's a LOT of commercial shit for mobiles that uses library assets), but if you want to have animated pixel graphics that look decent, you need to put in a lot of experienced work to make that happen.

And I didn't even get to the code or music yet.
Akira is offline  
Old 08 September 2017, 19:40   #183
Sinphaltimus
Registered User

Sinphaltimus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cresco, PA, USA
Age: 47
Posts: 653
I see some games actively in development here. WormWars and FireSword to be precise. In both instances the developers posted about needing help with artwork. No deadlines, no stress. I spent maybe a couple of hours all together on both games to help replace much of the graphics I felt I could best improve.

I imagine if someone who wanted to get a game made and started a topic here in the forums with updates and progress, asking for help along the way as needed for specific things, then as a community, we might be able to build a really good game to take advantage of the new horsepower we're seeing with Vampire Accelerators.

I'm in a state of flux with my Amiga stuff right now. Awaiting on parts and planning to towerize my A500 before I could even consider putting aside more time for a game dev project. But I'm willing to help in anyway I can. Sooner or later I'm going to take a jab at RedPill and come up with something to start. I'll be one of those guys asking for help and volunteers along the way.

I understand everyone's well earned experience around the amiga community speaks volumes about setting expectations, but I think there are a handful of folks out there who would really like to do something for the hobby of it. Like develop a better modernized game than we've seen in awhile, not just a port or remake or update to something classic, but something entirely new and fresh.

I see a lot of "will never happen" posts with sound logic to back it up. I'm going to be looking for a way around that. Bring folks together who want this for free, loosely tied together with a common goal and purpose.

Starting simple, short goals, fast returns, community releases for testing. Even if I don't get any help, all that means to me is the project will take that much longer on making any progress. I'm guessing I'm about 6 months out from being able to start this up. After all, I need to learn RedPill first.
Sinphaltimus is offline  
Old 08 September 2017, 20:35   #184
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 18,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinphaltimus View Post
I understand everyone's well earned experience around the amiga community speaks volumes about setting expectations, but I think there are a handful of folks out there who would really like to do something for the hobby of it. Like develop a better modernized game than we've seen in awhile, not just a port or remake or update to something classic, but something entirely new and fresh.
Sure, we can all do that, but that would not put the Vampire to test. Unless it is because you use something really unoptimized like shitty Backbone, and Vampire helps it run faster, but that's absolutely not what I would like seeing being done with Vampire.

For what you described (you are even going to use a game creation tool), standard Amiga is still a great platform and probably better suited to such games. But I think this thread is about "what can we have with all this power that was impossible before?", and I feel this calls for games that would floor your jaw, not something like "WormWars". To make such games would be a huge undertaking, and this is why a lot of people are doing ports of stuff like emulators or OpenBOR/Cannonball, because then you just have to deal with code, the assets are all sorted for you already.
Akira is offline  
Old 08 September 2017, 21:35   #185
Samurai_Crow
Total Chaos forever!

Samurai_Crow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ft. Collins, CO USA
Age: 43
Posts: 900
Send a message via Yahoo to Samurai_Crow
Prerendered vector graphics are a shortcut to make modern looking games. After all, Donkey Kong Country had 3d looking sprite graphics on the SuperNES and StarControl 3 on the PC was ISOMetric.

Sent from my Prism II using Tapatalk
Samurai_Crow is offline  
Old 08 September 2017, 21:49   #186
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 18,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow View Post
Prerendered vector graphics are a shortcut to make modern looking games. After all, Donkey Kong Country had 3d looking sprite graphics on the SuperNES and StarControl 3 on the PC was ISOMetric.
Yes, would be cool to see more of that (stuff like Pulstar), but you still have to put a lot of detail on the 3D models for them to look cool when you render them. Plus render time and post-processing/cutting up/organizing the assets.
Akira is offline  
Old 08 September 2017, 22:49   #187
MartinW
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 149
Is it not possible to do the assets on PC / Mac?
MartinW is offline  
Old 08 September 2017, 22:53   #188
Djole501
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Prijedor
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Yes, would be cool to see more of that (stuff like Pulstar), but you still have to put a lot of detail on the 3D models for them to look cool when you render them. Plus render time and post-processing/cutting up/organizing the assets.
Render time for small objects is equal to zero time waste.... Modeling is another thing. 3d renders can be made to look like pixelated gfx with little effort.
Djole501 is offline  
Old 09 September 2017, 02:38   #189
grelbfarlk
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinW View Post
Is it not possible to do the assets on PC / Mac?
Sure, there's no reason you couldn't do that. What gets complicated is getting anything to look decent when you intend for it to have 16-bit color then try to crush it down to 32 colors and still look something like you intended. Part of the reason Amiga developers like to work in their old tools like DPaint or whatever, you lock half of your palette for the right colors on characters then you have the other half for differing backgrounds, or different colors on the character.

If you start with >16-bit assets then it takes a fair amount of time trying to color reduce it to still work and look ok for original Amigas. For instance stuff like the later Sierra games that seemed like they just did the crappiest color reduction from 256 colors to 32 for the Amiga version.
grelbfarlk is offline  
Old 09 September 2017, 03:40   #190
Tsak
Registered User

Tsak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Athens
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Yes, of course it seems Vampire could make games like that possible. But the problem is what I mentioned before: making all the resources (graphics, music, level design) for such games, is a task too great for most anyone already involved on this little scene to take on their own,
Well, not all great pc indie games feature top grade pixel art. Many have extremely simple gfx assets but still manage to look awesome (thanks to clever stylistic choices). But I could give you that: yes, to make any good game you need to invest loads of personal time (regardless of the platform) plus creating assets for a '16bit' like game is much more demanding, so you'd probably need a team for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
and usually another point against making the effort, is that all that work will usually be for no monetary return, making it a very hard choice to take.
That's only partly true. Most commercial Amiga titles released in recent years were relatively successful in their funding, so there is at least some monetary return involved. The share is obviously tiny right now compared to any other platform but given the chance the Amiga games market COULD grow, become healthier and perhaps sustainable. After all it's not without precedent, other, smaller communities have done it, so...

Speaking of which, Vampire has a nice user base already. ~2500 cards sold is definitely a success story in my mind and I bet many would love to see new software for their new toys. Hense this discussion has much juice for developers interested to entertain the thought

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Forming a team to work together in this community seems like a herculean task, and even if you do, it's still a LOT of work by each party.
I've been there, definitely not an easy task but not impossible also. There are many motivated and talented individuals in this community, as long as you know where to look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Pixel graphics might seem like "the way back" but they actually require a LOT more work than 3D assets nowadays. You can cook up a game in Unity quickly, using 3D assets you easily build or find around, and it could just work (there's a LOT of commercial shit for mobiles that uses library assets), but if you want to have animated pixel graphics that look decent, you need to put in a lot of experienced work to make that happen.
Yes, using premade assets instead of creating your own is always gonna be easier! And no, pixel art does not require "more work" to create per se. It depends on what you target for, your stylistic choices, your level of experience and the time you are willing to invest to get to that result. It takes real skill and effort to create good pixel art as it takes to create good 3d art basically.
Tsak is offline  
Old 09 September 2017, 13:59   #191
MartinW
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 149
Re the colour reduction when producing the assets on modern equipment, I thought the point of this thread was Vampire games. Doesn't Vampire have RTG (whatever the SAGA is)? I would assume that has modern colour depths? At least higher than 16 colours to make the reduction considerably less painful.

PS: Is a joint Vampire / 060 RTG target a viable option to broaden the target platform a bit more? I'm guessing the bigger fragmentation will be by OS as despite having all that power at their hands a lot of Amiga gamers will still stick to 3.1 if not lower.

Apologies if that point has already been made in the last 10 pages!

Last edited by prowler; 09 September 2017 at 20:46. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged
MartinW is offline  
Old 09 September 2017, 15:40   #192
grelbfarlk
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinW View Post
Re the colour reduction when producing the assets on modern equipment, I thought the point of this thread was Vampire games. Doesn't Vampire have RTG (whatever the SAGA is)? I would assume that has modern colour depths? At least higher than 16 colours to make the reduction considerably less painful.

PS: Is a joint Vampire / 060 RTG target a viable option to broaden the target platform a bit more? I'm guessing the bigger fragmentation will be by OS as despite having all that power at their hands a lot of Amiga gamers will still stick to 3.1 if not lower.

Apologies if that point has already been made in the last 10 pages!
Yes you are correct, I'm sorry for going off on that tangent. The Vampire RTG and all RTG Zorro and PCI cards for the Amiga support 16-bit color which gives you 65536 colors, which should be plenty for the resolutions we are talking about running.

Or just say target 060/RTG/AHI and that covers Vampire, Classic Amigas with 060+RTG+sound cards (and paula too.) I've never tried running it with games (just Workbench) but there's CGX-AGA which should even allow RTG applications to work on AGA (with only 256 colors).
grelbfarlk is offline  
Old 10 September 2017, 14:23   #193
idrougge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 3,047
But with RTG, you again face the philosophical dilemma: Why develop something for a platform with minimal tool support (hardly a working C++ compiler) when you could just use Unity?

SAGA is something different than RTG, it's a less abstract platform for which you could target your game directly, but at the cost of dropping support for graphics card Amigas or other platforms.
idrougge is offline  
Old 10 September 2017, 17:22   #194
daxb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,740
Can`t you develop on a PC using all the tools you like? The only problem could be the programming language. GFX/SFX stuff is independent.

Isn`t SAGA more or less nearly the same as RTG (RTG "uses" SAGA). My guessing is that RTG P96 (driver?) is the layer of SAGA. As far as I know apollo core or vampire hasn`t a RTG chip (or in FPGA) like a normal graphics card.
daxb is offline  
Old 10 September 2017, 17:40   #195
gulliver
BoingBagged

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The South of nowhere
Age: 39
Posts: 1,496
Developing a game for 060/RTG/AHI is the smartest solution (with no FPU and no MMU):

-You get an already mature working enviroment out of the box.
-You expand the list of potential sales to UAE/Amithlon & High-end Amigas.
-You can use WinUAE/FS-UAE to develop and debug, which makes things much easier.
-It could potentially serve as a benchmarking tool. All Vampire users love benchmarks.

Then for code critical segments where you can show off the Vampire capabilities, you just resort to use those assembler macros the Apollo team says they have available to use for example, AMMX to playback an in game video sequence.

But I would say that the most difficult aspect is choosing the right game to do in the first place.
gulliver is offline  
Old 10 September 2017, 23:24   #196
James
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Beckenham/England
Posts: 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by grelbfarlk View Post
other than ports name how many RTG games that exist that can run over 320x240 resolution.
That would actually be a pretty big list, to name a few:

Asteriods - 640x400 (OK, you need to use mode promotion, but this is from 1987!)
AsteriodsII (by a different author) - replicates your workbench screen, doesn't work with all resolutions so mode promotion might be needed again. Works really well in 1366x768.
Chaos Castle - multiples of 320x240, 2x=640x480 e.t.c.
Crossfire II - 640x480 in zoom mode.
Diamond Caves - The status bar is wrongly positioned in low resolutions, 1024x768 works nicely (entire map on screen). There is a nice 256 colour replacement graphic set too.
Eat The Whistle - 400x300
Flyin'High - 320x256
Genetic Species - 640x480
Maniac Ball - 640x444
VirtualGP - 320x512

Plus Gloom Deluxe (and progeny), Napalm, Nemac IV, Fields of Battle, Foundation, Exodus, Moonbases, lots of workbench games e.t.c...

Maybe I'll make a full list one day.

Last edited by James; 19 September 2017 at 15:45. Reason: Small correction
James is offline  
Old 10 September 2017, 23:47   #197
grelbfarlk
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
Developing a game for 060/RTG/AHI is the smartest solution (with no FPU and no MMU):

-You get an already mature working enviroment out of the box.
-You expand the list of potential sales to UAE/Amithlon & High-end Amigas.
-You can use WinUAE/FS-UAE to develop and debug, which makes things much easier.
-It could potentially serve as a benchmarking tool. All Vampire users love benchmarks.

Then for code critical segments where you can show off the Vampire capabilities, you just resort to use those assembler macros the Apollo team says they have available to use for example, AMMX to playback an in game video sequence.

But I would say that the most difficult aspect is choosing the right game to do in the first place.
Agreed, except it should be 060/RTG/AHI + FPU, no reason to neuter the 060/040 version by excluding FPU when the Vampire can emulate the FPU and the new version will have an FPU. Any Accelerator that has an 040 or 060 can be replaced with a full version with an FPU. I don't know if any game that uses an MMU.
grelbfarlk is offline  
Old 11 September 2017, 00:01   #198
James
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Beckenham/England
Posts: 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by grelbfarlk View Post
I don't know if any game that uses an MMU.
ADoom ran better on my 060 with the MMU tooltype enabled.
James is offline  
Old 11 September 2017, 01:15   #199
grelbfarlk
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by James View Post
ADoom ran better on my 060 with the MMU tooltype enabled.
I stand corrected. I don't know of TWO Amiga games that use MMU.
grelbfarlk is offline  
Old 12 September 2017, 14:08   #200
idrougge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 3,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
Can`t you develop on a PC using all the tools you like? The only problem could be the programming language. GFX/SFX stuff is independent.
The problem is, as you say, the programming language and accompanying toolchain. There are no support libraries unless you count SDL, which is both bare-bones and quite unusable on an Amiga. Not to mention the fact that the GCC support isn't quite there even for real Motorola processors, let alone the so-called 68080.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb
Isn't SAGA more or less nearly the same as RTG (RTG "uses" SAGA). My guessing is that RTG P96 (driver?) is the layer of SAGA. As far as I know apollo core or vampire hasn`t a RTG chip (or in FPGA) like a normal graphics card.
No, SAGA is the yet-unreleased super-chipset of the Apollo architecture, which is based on a model closer to the Amiga custom chipset. The current RTG support in the Vampire is basically just a framebuffer, eating a lot of CPU.
idrougge is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
vampire V2 - what should i be using it for...? RobA1200 Amiga scene 238 17 July 2017 22:36
Vampire x2 600 drusso66 support.Hardware 11 26 March 2017 11:18
Request RTG HDMI Vampire Demos and Games Overflow support.Demos 3 07 August 2016 12:03
Vampire II - Who is first? JackLeather support.Hardware 2 26 January 2016 14:56
A600 Vampire 2 games update kipper2k support.Games 36 20 December 2015 19:41

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.24902 seconds with 12 queries