Why are platform games on the Amiga really mediocre?

[Paul_s]

Originally Posted by Dastardly

Haha! Either is preferable to playing Super-frog. I'd drink a black pudding/lucozade smoothie before playing that soul-less crap

You know after all these years (going on 6!) I can't stand to play Superfrog nomore!

Actually a lot of games from my childhood don't 'grab' me like they once did I guess that's what happens with the passage of time...

I can read about the Amiga until it's coming out of my ears but playing the games? It depends what it is... here's a pic of my current collection and what I really still love from back in the day. Downsized a lot of my collection over the past few years, sure there are more games I do like that aren't here... but these are my top 10

RIP Superfrog.

[Mrs Beanbag]

a black pudding/lucozade smoothie? isn't that just Guinness?

Superfrog was in many ways a step up, quality-wise, it was fast and smooth and responsive, but the gameplay was just kind of dull. Shame really.

[Dastardly]

Yes technically impressive, but like a dead eyed supermodel, superficial and dull.

[Lonewolf10]

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

But owners of Sinclair Spectrums, Acorn Electrons, Amstrad CPCs etc didn't have such luxuries. Especially on the Spectrum, any kind of scrolling was a major feat, and that was the most popular machine in this country.

I agree, but vertical scrolling was troublesome because of the way the single 'bitplane' was arranged in memory. Sideways scrolling was somewhat easier, but still not easy.

[Mrs Beanbag]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf10

I agree, but vertical scrolling was troublesome because of the way the single 'bitplane' was arranged in memory. Sideways scrolling was somewhat easier, but still not easy.

it was pure CPU bashing, either way, and good luck getting good frame rates, this is why so many Spectrum games had huge status panels, another thing that a lot of early Amiga games seem to have inherited.

[Lonewolf10]

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

it was pure CPU bashing, either way, and good luck getting good frame rates, this is why so many Spectrum games had huge status panels, another thing that a lot of early Amiga games seem to have inherited.

True, though some games had pretty fast scrolling with minimal status panels - Ghosts 'n' Goblins springs to mind, though there were usually only 2 small bad guys (+ Arthur) on screen at any time - except the boss screens which was the only time the screen was 'locked' (no scrolling), but that made the bosses supersmooth and awesome to look at (even in just 2 colours!)

[eva]

I wanted to chime in on this one... I've played a lot of SNES / SEGA platform games and they were very bad. I guess that a lot of console stuff is wrapped in a bunch of advertisement. I remember Mario and it was really terrible. It became very popular indeed but if you contrast it to say, right about any Amiga platform game, Mario really sucks. Compare Mario to a game like Gods or Twin World and see the difference.

The first time I played Lion King, it was on the SEGA and it was just terrible. Funky controls, very easy to die, you easily get mauled into a corner and then lose life. It is also available on the Amiga though.

Then there's Sonic on SEGA - which, let's say it is one of the better ones. However, it also benefited from a lot of advertisement. In fact, I like very few platform games from consoles - I used to play a lot of Donkey Kong with my ex on the SNES.

Then you have stuff like Golden Axe (on the arcade), or Ninja Turtles (on the SNES) - I've played those quite a bit. They are available on the Amiga as well - at least Golden Axe is; but they were like very frustrating. Golden Axe is just outright annoying, it goes out of its way to annoy you at every step.

I wonder how many people actually "finished" a game like Golden Axe, Ninja Turtles, Mario or Donkey Kong - I mean like really finish, from start to end credits. I am not sure I could do it even today. Platform games never really had a "save" function, so you ended up having to restart if you had to leave which just made it even more frustrating and very annoying.

Then again, a lot of titles from consoles are also available on the Amiga, except those mentioned before: Blues Brothers, Addams Family, Another World, Cool Spot, James Pond, Ghouls and Ghosts, Moonwalker, Prince of Persia, and those are probably just a few.

I would actually say that Amiga-only platform games were superior and lots of fun. Stuff like Giana Sisters - which just looks like Mario but it is just better in very many ways. Then you have like Chuck Rock - which is very cute, mentioned Gods, Flood, Prehistorik...

Then my all time favourite which is Twin World which is just amazing from all perspectives. There is simply no match possible between Twin World and say, Mario... Compare the graphics or the sound for instance... Not to mention how interesting Twin World is by comparison..

[dlfrsilver]

Twinworld is a very carefully crafted game (Deutsche Qualitat!). That's even said in the manual.

[jbenam]

Originally Posted by eva

It became very popular indeed but if you contrast it to say, right about any Amiga platform game, Mario really sucks. Compare Mario to a game like Gods or Twin World and see the difference.

IMHO, they're completely different subgenres. Mario is a pure platform game, while Gods also adds combat.

Also, Mario is a lot smoother than Gods. But they're different subgenres, so it's okay

Originally Posted by eva

Then you have stuff like Golden Axe (on the arcade), or Ninja Turtles (on the SNES) - I've played those quite a bit. They are available on the Amiga as well - at least Golden Axe is; but they were like very frustrating. Golden Axe is just outright annoying, it goes out of its way to annoy you at every step.

Golden Axe is an amazing game, even if I can't get myself to play the Amiga version anymore after playing the Arcade so much

Originally Posted by eva

I wonder how many people actually "finished" a game like Golden Axe, Ninja Turtles, Mario or Donkey Kong - I mean like really finish, from start to end credits. I am not sure I could do it even today.

Me, quite a few times as well!

I love both Golden Axe and Ninja Turtles, which I've completed numerous times. They'll just take away 1-2 hours of your time, while also being terribly enjoyable. I've finished SMB1 so many times now I've lost count. There was a time I could easily finish it in around 20-30 minutes each time, emulated on my DS (gotta admit, sometimes I cheated with "rewind" ).

Originally Posted by eva

Platform games never really had a "save" function, so you ended up having to restart if you had to leave which just made it even more frustrating and very annoying.

All the Marios from SMB3 onwards have it. I can't stand super-long platforms without any saves, and on the Amiga there are quite a few (I remember leaving my Amiga turned on overnight!).

Originally Posted by eva

I would actually say that Amiga-only platform games were superior and lots of fun. Stuff like Giana Sisters - which just looks like Mario but it is just better in very many ways.

I'm not sure how anyone can say that - Giana is a bad ripoff of Mario and I thought that even when I was 4 in 1992. The original is just SO much better.

Originally Posted by eva

Then my all time favourite which is Twin World which is just amazing from all perspectives. There is simply no match possible between Twin World and say, Mario... Compare the graphics or the sound for instance... Not to mention how interesting Twin World is by comparison..

Never heard of it - I'll have to download it one of these days

[Mrs Beanbag]

Originally Posted by eva

I remember Mario and it was really terrible. It became very popular indeed but if you contrast it to say, right about any Amiga platform game, Mario really sucks. Compare Mario to a game like Gods or Twin World and see the difference.

we already have compared Mario with Gods, and quite a lot of us concluded that Gods is terrible. well i agree with several others that such a comparison isn't really fair because it's not the same sort of game even though both have platforms. But the only thing you can "see" where Gods is better than Mario is the graphics. Clearly there is far more to any game than just that, which is why i can't stand to play any of the latest Shootymans games. I can have a lot of fun playing Mario but playing Gods seems more like work. Even when it comes to graphics, Gods only looks better in stills, if you see it move it is quite plain to the eye that it has a terrible frame rate.

The Lion King didn't even get good reviews in its own day, so i don't know why you pick on that one in particular. Nobody is claiming all console platform games were brilliant.

Twin Worlds however is a very nice game.

Platform games never really had a "save" function, so you ended up having to restart if you had to leave which just made it even more frustrating and very annoying.

Obviously consoles couldn't save anything at all without any disk drive, and before flash cards were invented. Later on games started using codes so that you could restart roughly where you left off. Interesting how few Amiga games allowed you to save anything though, well it was always recommended to write protect your original disks in any case, that's how viruses spread i guess.

Then again, a lot of titles from consoles are also available on the Amiga, except those mentioned before: Blues Brothers, Addams Family, Another World, Cool Spot, James Pond, Ghouls and Ghosts, Moonwalker, Prince of Persia, and those are probably just a few.

Often the Amiga conversions were quite bad compared to the console or arcade originals, however there were some exceptions. Toki on the Amiga was far better than the Megadrive version. Rarely an Amiga game was converted to consoles.

I would actually say that Amiga-only platform games were superior and lots of fun. Stuff like Giana Sisters - which just looks like Mario but it is just better in very many ways. Then you have like Chuck Rock - which is very cute, mentioned Gods, Flood, Prehistorik...

I really don't know why anyone would say that Giana Sisters is better than Mario. It is a poor copy, the graphics are certainly no better and it's really lacking a lot of the charm and polish of its Nintendo rival. One of the things that was really fun in Mario is when you jump on the turtle shell and it flies off and knocks over the other bad guys, interestingly the manual for Giana seems to imply it but they apparently never actually put it in the game. Also the way you beat the final boss is just too weird. It's like they released the game unfinished.

Then my all time favourite which is Twin World which is just amazing from all perspectives. There is simply no match possible between Twin World and say, Mario... Compare the graphics or the sound for instance... Not to mention how interesting Twin World is by comparison..

Well i'm with you on Twin World, until you get to "compare the graphics or the sound for instance" and i realise where you're going wrong. Graphics and sound are really minor details, the icing on the cake so to speak, when it comes to a game being enjoyable to play. Simple graphics are fine for simple games (and there is a lot of difference between simple graphics and bad graphics). Bubble Bobble is an eternal favourite.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

Obviously consoles couldn't save anything at all without any disk drive, and before flash cards were invented.

More than a year later, North America and Europe received releases on the Nintendo Entertainment System in cartridge form, making the game the first home console title to include an internal battery for saving data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Leg...8video_game%29

That was in 1987.

[Mrs Beanbag]

a battery... so how many of them haven't leaked?

[Retro-Nerd]

Lithium button cell batteries leakes rarely. They lose energy after 5-10 years, easy to replace.

[TCD]

I think it's fair to say that they are at least as reliable as floppy disks

[Paul_s]

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

a black pudding/lucozade smoothie? isn't that just Guinness?

Superfrog was in many ways a step up, quality-wise, it was fast and smooth and responsive, but the gameplay was just kind of dull. Shame really.

haha, I think Dastardly drank one at the time!

Originally Posted by Dastardly

Yes technically impressive, but like a dead eyed supermodel, superficial and dull.

Yep, it's nicely polished and cute but after a while it just gets a little tedious and repetitive... now a platformer such as Yo! Joe! is much more entertaining (actually what floats your boat platform wise this year?)

[Dastardly]

I haven't played a really good platformer in a looong time, which is a shame because it's one of my favourite genres.

Re Superfrog/Team 17, what I would have loved to see is an Amiga developer "supergroup" project. I'm thinking the technical savvy and hardware squeezing of the Team 17 coders, the game/graphics/level design of The Bitmap Brothers and the atmosphere/world/story design of Psygnosis all coming together to produce one killer game. That to me would be amazing.

[Shoonay]

Originally Posted by Dastardly

I haven't played a really good platformer in a looong time, which is a shame because it's one of my favourite genres.

If you don't mind it being non-Amiga, try: Dark Void Zero, Eryi's Action, Eversion, Jet Gunner, La-Mulana (2013 version), Mutant Mudds Deluxe, Oniken, Shovel Knight, Teslagrad, Tiny Barbarian DX, Volgarr the Viking, VVVVVV, Yury to name a few.

[Dastardly]

Not heard of most of them, but I've got one eye on Shovel Knight after hearing good things and I love VVVVVV . I'll look into those others, thanks.

VVVVVV is a strange one come to think of it because to me it's what I consider a pure platformer and yet there's no jumping in it.

[eva]

One of the funny things I remember is how I was still stuck on the Amiga while others moved on to the PC and they were talking about 3D graphics. I remember I just couldn't really understand what they meant with "3D" - after all I was playing Wings on the Amiga which was very much in 3D - all three axes, with full collisions in "mid air". I was majorly disappointed when Duke Nukem came out and, even if it advertised itself as 3D, I could not really see any difference - first time I played it in a PC store and was like "that's it? that's 3D?"... Amiga games made clever use of textures and shadows to give a "3D" impression which was quite good.

You had sort-of hybrids that you simply could not get on consoles. Stuff like Haegar the Horrible (and The Lost Vikings which also appeared on the PC) which were sort-of platforms but they had a twist to it - you could shop, buy stuff, equipment, etc... Stuff like Aladdin on consoles was fun, but in the end it was a "Disney platform game" - it did not have much added, except the between-level cutscenes where you could get some life or stuff like that. Haegar the Horrible had in-game stores, custom weapons, etc... After playing "Titus the Fox" or Prehistorik on the Amiga, I did of course enjoy "Earthworm Jim" on consoles.

Back then you also had a little more variety - for a very long while games started to be easily classified: first person, shooter, platform game, RPG, etc... It is just these days (2012+) that new "indie" games start to appear where you get games with a twist.

I have to say that after I moved from the Amiga to a PC I have not seen "Marble Madness", "Spindizzy Worlds" or a very rudimentary but awesome game like "Sentinel", until say, one-two years ago or so with "experimental" stuff like "Portal" or "A Story About My Uncle"... These are "indie" hits and got popular very fast - but what can I tell you, it's not new, go back 20 years and play Spindizzy Worlds. Sure, it's not "3D" (it actually is!) but yeah, it is a hybrid top-down puzzle game and with a twist that you would not have seen in the last 10 years on the PC...

[Mrs Beanbag]

yeah i loved Amiga 3D games such as Elite, Starglider II and the Mercenary series, i actually went off computer games when they all turned into clones of Doom and Quake, that kind of game just bores me to tears, and with such masculine fantasies, obviously i am not part of the target audience.

yes and indeed "isometric 3D" is also still 3D, so we also have such venerable games as Knight Lore, Head over Heels &c on the various 8 bit platforms

i did get sick of people championing Death Mask as "Doom for the Amiga" though because it was no such thing, really it was just Dungeon Master on steroids.