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Old 18 June 2019, 02:41   #21
005AGIMA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't agree here. Here's my opinion on SOTB:

Normally, games telegraph what is going to happen to the player before it does. Either by showing the new danger in such a way it can't hurt the player first, or by making it very obvious that something bad is going to happen.

Given the above, the level design is very poor - enemy placement is not easily predicted because, for all intents and purposes, it's completely random. Properly designed games have 'rules' for where what enemy is spawned and when.

Not in SOTB, were (nearly) invisible obstacles can poke out of the floor without any warning. And simply running too far in one direction actually causes an immediate game over. That is not good design. Nor is giving the player a health bar but still putting in enemies that instantly kill you (without any warning this is the case) 'good design'.

Note that these two things (telegraphing/clear rules) are done even in very hard games so difficulty is no excuse here.

The maze like structure of some of the levels is also pretty poorly thought out. There are no clues as to what the correct path is and inside of each specific level, it all looks alike. Coupled with the clunky movement of the beast, this makes navigation a chore rather than a joy.

To top it all off, the main weapon of the player (it's punch) is far too short ranged - to fight enemies, you're forced to put yourself into far more danger than is reasonable given the number of enemies and the amount of health the player has.

It's all pretty meh.

The collision detection is also bad. It's seemingly totally random whether or not your punch connects to the enemy or not. I've had it clearly hit the enemy and still not 'count'. I've also had it miss the enemy entirely and count as a hit. Similarly, you're insanely easy to damage - get touched by as much as a pixel and you get damage. That is bad. Period.

Difficulty alone is no excuse here. It's perfectly possible to create insanely difficult games that are still fun to play. SOTB isn't one of them.

None of this changes that the game looks wonderful, but it took Reflections until part 3 to get a game that also played adequately. It's such a shame, I so want to like this game but it's just no fun to play.
You just listed everything that makes it AWESOME imho. I'm confused

This all to me, comes back to "whaaa, this game doesnt let me win mummy!" :P

Keeping in mind, I've never beaten the game, or really progressed very far. But I see that as MY fault, not the game's.

It's a FRIGGIN hard game.

And the day I beat it (without a cheat and without first watching a playthrough) I will crown myself God of all things, and you will all bow to me.

Fair?
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Old 18 June 2019, 03:01   #22
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For me the worst bit is where you have to collide with a random bit of background scenery ( the torch on the castle wall ) to progress. There are lots of ideas in the game, but most are very clumsily implemented.
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Old 18 June 2019, 10:00   #23
malko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
[...] To top it all off, the main weapon of the player (it's punch) is far too short ranged - to fight enemies, you're forced to put yourself into far more danger than is reasonable given the number of enemies and the amount of health the player has. [...]
Except if you are "Mister Fantastic" I would say this is normal


For everybody thinking that controlling the character is a hard thing, here is a small help in order to concentrate on the game's control instead on the enemies walking at the player. Hope this will help you in mastering the controls.
This help will not reduce the pleasure in beating the game as it is only the beginning. There is more to discover/remember
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SotB-CarteNiveau01-WorkInProgress.gif
Views:	58
Size:	558.4 KB
ID:	63505   Click image for larger version

Name:	SotB-CarteNiveau02-WorkInProgress.jpg
Views:	66
Size:	1.04 MB
ID:	63506  
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Old 18 June 2019, 10:09   #24
roondar
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Originally Posted by 005AGIMA View Post
You just listed everything that makes it AWESOME imho. I'm confused
That's because you don't understand what the word awesome means. It does not mean 'crap', as you seem to think

Quote:
This all to me, comes back to "whaaa, this game doesnt let me win mummy!" :P
If that's what you got from my post then you clearly didn't read it very well. Next time, read the parts where I point out how difficulty is no excuse for poor design and the part where I point out that there are in fact really difficult games that are good (and SOTB isn't one of those games).

SOTB is only difficult because whoever designed the game (and whoever programmed the collision detection) didn't do a good job. And that is my point. I have no issues with hard games, I have issues with over-hyped bad games. Like SOTB.

Quote:
Keeping in mind, I've never beaten the game, or really progressed very far. But I see that as MY fault, not the game's.

It's a FRIGGIN hard game.

And the day I beat it (without a cheat and without first watching a playthrough) I will crown myself God of all things, and you will all bow to me.

Fair?
No, that's silly. SOTB is not a good game. Don't put in the effort for something that poor, play something good instead.

You want something hard? A real challenge? Try Lifeforce/Salamander (arcade versions) to start. Or try Ghosts 'n Goblins or Ghouls 'n Ghosts (arcade versions again). Awesome games, but really hard.

Now should you, after beating these, still think that SOTB is a good game to play... Well, then you didn't pay attention. Difficulty is not why SOTB is bad. SOTB is difficult because it was badly designed. And there is a massive difference between those two things.

---
Quote:
Originally Posted by malko View Post
Except if you are "Mister Fantastic" I would say this is normal
Games are not about being 'normal'. They are about being fun, a quality which (IMHO) SOTB sorely lacks.

Quote:
For everybody thinking that controlling the character is a hard thing, here is a small help in order to concentrate on the game's control instead on the enemies walking at the player. Hope this will help you in mastering the controls.
This help will not reduce the pleasure in beating the game as it is only the beginning. There is more to discover/remember
I'm happy for you that you like this game. Really. But that map won't help. I know the way. And I still think the game is poor.

Last edited by roondar; 18 June 2019 at 10:13. Reason: Added a reply
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Old 18 June 2019, 10:41   #25
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SotB is fun to play.
We only have a different perception of this game : VS .
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Old 18 June 2019, 10:56   #26
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Because of the way it's designed there's to much luck or chance and that just seems pointless
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Old 18 June 2019, 11:07   #27
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Originally Posted by malko View Post
SotB is fun to play.
We only have a different perception of this game : VS .
No, you think it's fun to play. Which is fine. But it is an opinion and considering the number of people who'd disagree with you on that, certainly not an undisputed one.

Doesn't change I'm happy for you that you like it of course. More power to you. We all like some games almost everyone else thinks are bad.

Last edited by roondar; 18 June 2019 at 11:25.
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Old 18 June 2019, 12:23   #28
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
No, you think it's fun to play. Which is fine. But it is an opinion and considering the number of people who'd disagree with you on that, certainly not an undisputed one. [...]
A little weak as an argument : you can find as many people who find this game fun to play as the opposite, for sure .
Let's not start counting points and stop here while it's still a "good-natured" exchange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
[...] More power to you [...]
I think the 12 health point given in the beginning of the game are enough to defeat the Beast

Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
[...] We all like some games almost everyone else thinks are bad.
+1

Last edited by malko; 18 June 2019 at 14:03.
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Old 18 June 2019, 17:59   #29
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A little weak as an argument : you can find as many people who find this game fun to play as the opposite, for sure .
Let's not start counting points and stop here while it's still a "good-natured" exchange.
As opposed to your argument it just 'is' fun, which is like super strong

Clearly, if many people dislike a game (in your words as many as like it*) then it's not so certain it is in fact all that much fun. Such a result would make it at best an average game. A good game (or let alone a classic game) would have a far greater proportion of those who played it liking it.
Quote:
I think the 12 health point given in the beginning of the game are enough to defeat the Beast
My criticism of the game has exactly nothing to do with its inherent difficulty. I'm not going to explain that for a third time.

Anyway, you're right - it is best to stop. You have your opinion, I have mine. We're not going to convince each other and it's fine to agree to disagree. Not enough people do that

*) this itself is almost certainly false if you count people outside of just the Amiga community - most things I've seen about the game in non-Amiga places seem to be really rather critical of it, pointing to the same kind of problems I do. Even in the Amiga community - where it holds a special place - there seem to be plenty of people who dislike it, as witnessed by threads like these.
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Old 18 June 2019, 23:26   #30
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Not that I want to continue this exchange, but I am not sure I understand you on this (that I did not see on first reading). So thanks for your clarification :
Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
No, you think it's fun to play. [...]
Are you saying that this game is so bad that everybody* have to condition/persuade themself that it's fun to play ?
*(having fun with this game, enjoying playing it)
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Old 19 June 2019, 11:43   #31
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Originally Posted by malko View Post
Not that I want to continue this exchange, but I am not sure I understand you on this (that I did not see on first reading). So thanks for your clarification :

Are you saying that this game is so bad that everybody* have to condition/persuade themself that it's fun to play ?
*(having fun with this game, enjoying playing it)
Oh no, that's not what I meant at all.

What I mean there is that it's purely subjective whether or not something is fun, while your post I replied to implied it was a 'fact' that SOTB was fun.

You know I think SOTB is a bad game. But I don't think it's so bad that no one can find fun playing it. I simply think there are many much better games available and that SOTB is overrated to this day (mainly because it looks and sounds great). Which is merely my opinion - just as you liking the game is merely your opinion.

No facts involved, it's all subjective

Last edited by roondar; 19 June 2019 at 13:48.
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Old 19 June 2019, 13:52   #32
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OK
I would even say that the 'fun'/'non fun' that we get from playing a game is objective from our perspective as it is based on our background and what we like/dislike .

All this reminds me of a philosophical dissertation when I was a student...
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Old 19 June 2019, 14:15   #33
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Hmm, that is very interesting but I can't say I agree with that either

Anything that is 'objective' from our perspective but not the perspective of others can't logically speaking be objective. This is due solely to the meaning of the word 'objective', which (at least in my dictionary) includes "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions" as part of it's definition

But perhaps this is a discussion for another thread somewhere
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Old 19 June 2019, 15:25   #34
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roondar and malko; I think you've both argued your points back and forth enough now.

Back on topic please.
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Old 20 June 2019, 03:05   #35
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Anyone play the new one on PS4? That's actually quite fun, and yet beautiful, and very reminiscent of the original. Except that I actually managed to win it, though without getting all the little secrets they added.

It's also quite difficult, but has a save feature, which makes it so it's possible at least. Aren't there trainers for the Amiga version of the first one? Pretty sure there is...
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Old 20 June 2019, 09:59   #36
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[...] Aren't there trainers for the Amiga version of the first one? Pretty sure there is...
If you have Damien's Collection, you have a +3 trained version
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Old 20 June 2019, 12:59   #37
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Aren't there trainers for the Amiga version of the first one? Pretty sure there is...
See this thread for the 100% working disk set: Shadow of the Beast freezes on end i.e:
... Shadow of the Beast (1989)(Psygnosis)(Disk 1 of 2)[cr Band][t +3 Band].adf [CRC: 8551E427]
... Shadow of the Beast (1989)(Psygnosis)(Disk 2 of 2)[cr Band][t +2 Band].adf [CRC: 499E7F01]
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If you have Damien's Collection, you have a +3 trained version
It's not really 3+, personally I don't consider showing / disabling the intro or outro trainer options:

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Old 20 June 2019, 14:15   #38
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[...]
It's not really 3+, personally I don't consider showing / disabling the intro or outro trainer options [...]
+1 (was only referring to the TOSEC label which says +3) .
On my side with "Intro end of game" set to 'no', the game crash (on disk access after loosing all health points) ...

Last edited by malko; 20 June 2019 at 19:17. Reason: changed "activated " to "set to 'no'"
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Old 20 June 2019, 22:15   #39
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Getting back on topic a bit, I've had a bit of a think and can think of one thing that may have been 'limited' by the Amiga's resources. The player character is sprite based. IIRC there are some in-level things done with sprites as well during the above ground/outside sections.

Now, if this is the case then the combination of these two may be what causes the Beast to only rarely have a long range weapon. As is, the character uses up half of the sprite channels. A longer range horizontal weapon would've cost either one or two additional sprites channels, which may have been deemed to be too much as it would only leave two free.

Note this is pure speculation based on my memory being intact
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Old 27 June 2019, 09:11   #40
005AGIMA
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I used to play Ghosts and Goblins and Ghouls and Ghosts on a mtes Megadrive I think it was.

To want to play through an Arcade version is noble, so long as you keep in mind that arcade versions were of course, not there to be "completed". They were there to swallow as much money as possible from the player.

impossible? No. Hell no. But harder than they should be for the want of making as much money as possible?

...well yes.

Poor design? Well no. They were designed VERY well. ....to make money.
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