Will 3D ever become retro? - Page 3

Shatterhand · 11 February 2003, 23:31

4 dimensions doesn't have something to do with time travel ?

I remember in back to the future how Dr. Emmet Brown says Martin McFly has to think in 4 dimensions.

Amiga1992 · 11 February 2003, 23:35

Forget about movies, BTTF fanboi

.
Our world is 4 dimensional.
Width, height, depth and time are the four magnitudes that supposedly compose our world.

Anyway, the eye can just represent graphically the first three, and nothing else. So there's no other way to "show" things to your brain.

Only possible option I could think of that might involve the 4th dimension would be a direct man-machine interface, where the machine stimulates our sense of time also. But i'm getting fucked up in the brain with these ideas, and no, I have no narcotics near me at the moment

th4t1guy · 12 February 2003, 00:33

What about the Fifth Dimension?

And what does Aquarius have to do with video games?

Unknown_K · 12 February 2003, 08:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Akira
I say you read my posts again and try to understand them correctly, because you didn't get my point at all (I even agreed on stuff like Doom being retro, if not explicitly)

It was just a joke. Had nothing to do with the thread.

Unknown_K · 12 February 2003, 08:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Akira
Forget about movies, BTTF fanboi .
Our world is 4 dimensional.
Width, height, depth and time are the four magnitudes that supposedly compose our world.

Anyway, the eye can just represent graphically the first three, and nothing else. So there's no other way to "show" things to your brain.

Only possible option I could think of that might involve the 4th dimension would be a direct man-machine interface, where the machine stimulates our sense of time also. But i'm getting fucked up in the brain with these ideas, and no, I have no narcotics near me at the moment

Well there is also the sence of touch, smell, and hearing.

3d audio was tried by aureal and it worked great (fuck creative labs and their echoing crap). More should be done in this area.

One day we might have an oder generator connected to a computer so when you walk into a dungeon you smell the rotting decay and stench along with the humidity and unreal animal smells (this would give a bigger boost to the game then hearing I think)

And as far as touch goes a body suit that interacts with the computer would really be cool (forget about the aspect for a minute). Playing alone in the dark and having a zombie tap you on the back would scare the hell out of you. Or playing Quake 9 when somebody shoots you with the shotgun it stings!

Add these 3 things and instead of sitting in front of a monitor you could be in a large warehouse with 3d surround holographic image while your playing in the game.

This probably wont ever happen, not because of technology but because if it was too real it would be 100% addicting plus the fact people would end up having heart attacks if the game was too scary.

Dastardly · 12 February 2003, 13:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Unknown_K

This probably wont ever happen, not because of technology but because if it was too real it would be 100% addicting plus the fact people would end up having heart attacks if the game was too scary.

If I could virtually 'be' in Silent Hill as Im playing, Id never play it!
It would sh*t me up baaaaaaad man

I LOVE the idea though

Drake1009 · 12 February 2003, 15:08

Speaking of the dimensions. Didn't the PC and Amiga have 4D sports driving?

And the 5th dimension was probability. (according to hitchhiker's guide book 5)

And I think the conversation strayed into holograms and such was because when the computer industry started using something like that for games any game still using 3D as we know it would be old enough to be retro.

Twistin'Ghost · 12 February 2003, 15:14

If I am going to go inside a game interactively as has been suggested here, I think it would be more fun to go into Robocod or Zool - or someone would need to code a Yellow Submarine game just so you could go to Pepperland in your suit.

But I still can't help thinking about a game in which I must battle a dominatrix to free her bitch kingpin bevy of sluts from her rule. That would be a game ending to top all game endings. They could name it, maybe, Whorrican!

(i kill me)

Drake1009 · 12 February 2003, 15:47

Indeed. Even before that time comes though we need more silly non-too serious games. Games like Battlefield 1942, Return to castle wolfenstein and Medal of honour were games I never considered playing. I play games to get away from reality. Then why do I have to play a game going for as much reality as possible?

IanS · 12 February 2003, 17:23

3D probably won't become retro, rather the older games with the less fancy effects will. Some games just look dated compared to more recent stuff. Although gameplay is another matter... graphics don't make gameplay.

I still like to play Doom occasionally. It's a simple concept, not too many puzzles and lots of movement and critical timing. Most arcade games share the last two characteristics, and the human psyche seems be drawn to that sort of thing. Let's face it, most of the popular sports involve the same sort of thing. It's not the only thing, but the dearth of 'shoote em up games' over the decades, 2D or 3D confirms it.

Anyhow, I love 3D FPS games. I hate adventure games and platformers, but I like silly puzzle games like Boxworld and even minesweeper.

Each to their own, as long as you enjoy it and don't hurt anybody else in the process.

How about a "cruelty to sprites" campaign?

"A sprite is for life, not just for Christmas!"

"Don't persecute polygons... they have rights too!"

I don't think many of the 3d games of the last few years follow the Doom premise exactly. The closest would be Seious Sam, which I found to be "Doom but with great graphics". Most just don't have that same frantic pace that Doom had. I still enjoy them for what they are. Just like millions of other people.

Drake1009 · 12 February 2003, 17:25

I quite like platform games as long as you've got to do a bit of thinking and a lot of movement.

Amiga1992 · 12 February 2003, 17:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake1009
any game still using 3D as we know it would be old enough to be retro.

There!
'using 3D as we know it'
The way 3D is depicted becomes obsolete.
Somebody who uinderstood me!

Drake1009 · 12 February 2003, 17:46

That's what I meant from the start even if I'm an idiot with words.

IanS · 12 February 2003, 18:20

I can't figure out why I don't like platformers. With adventures and RPGs, it's because I don't think in the same way as the people who wrote the games. The puzzles just don't make sense to me most of the time. Maybe I'm too logical... 'cos my lateral thinking abilities don't kick when I'm playing them.

I'm suprised that people still play them!

I'll stick to FPS games and the odd bit of programming. Give me a flak cannon and some body armour and I'm happy....

Drake1009 · 12 February 2003, 18:27

Most puzzle games build on logic.

Still love the incredible machine. Ok so you had to allow for creative thinking but logic would get you darn far.

IanS · 12 February 2003, 19:40

I have to hide my face and shamefully admit that I gave up on the genre long ago. Perhaps now I'm a bit older (and wiser?) I might have more success. The same with God games... never saw the attraction of them myself. Give me Alien Breed 3D over Populous or Simcity etc.

I think 3D games are here to stay, apart from games that don't really warrant it. Scrabble, Chess, board games etc work much better in 2D. Personally I love Scrabble, but the latest PC version is VERY unstable on every machine I've tried it on.

Tim Janssen · 14 February 2003, 13:33

What I actually meant with this thread is that I find it remarkable that games that were fondly remembered in gamesmagazines 9-12 years ago still are regarded as classics by the current bunch of mags. I mean, even the retro-articles are the same!

Here is a perfect example: Edge July 1994 (which covered the worldwide premiere of Sony's Playstation in Japan) featured two retro articles: First was a look at Irem's R-Type 1 that appeared on homecomputers in 1988. The second article was a look at Geoff Crammond's Stunt Car Racer on Amiga and wishes of how good it would be on next-gen machines.
Nine years and thousands of games later magazines like Games TM look back to the past with articles about these very games. It reads like the past nine years are a vacuum with no significant progress/innovation that has happened.

Where are the retro-articles about 'significant' titles like Quake (7 years old), Half Life and MDK?

th4t1guy · 15 February 2003, 04:35

Quake and Half-Life are not really retro yet, even though they are fairly old. I'd guess the main reason for this is that people can still run it on their new systems without having to worry about any of the weirdness in downloading an "emulator".

Take a look at everything software-wise that is considered retro. It's mainly retro because it runs on yesteryear's hardware. When people mention it, the average person might think, "oh yeah, I remember that.....back in the day...". However, they've stopped using it because they've moved onto newer technology.

Will Quake and Half-Life ever become retro? Sure they will. I would almost go as far to say Quake is retro now, but Half-Life might need some more time.

Mr Creosote · 15 February 2003, 11:51

Dealing with "PC Abandonware" daily, I can assure you games like Doom and Quake are by now considered "retro" and "classics". The only reason you can't find them that often is that id is still making money off them. Here is the collection of a site which is pretty typical for the 'new generation': Battle Arena Toshinden 2, Blood, Carmageddon, Command&Conquer Gold, Commander Keen 1, Commander Keen 4, Descent, Destruction Derby, Destruction Derby 2, Dune 2: The Building Of A Dynasty, Fatal Racing (aka Whiplash), Golden Axe, Grand Prix 2, Leisure Suit Larry 1 (Remake)
Leisure Suit Larry 6, Magic Carpet, Magic Carpet - Hidden Worlds, Magic Carpet 2 - Netherworlds, Need For Speed 2 - Special Edition, One Must Fall 2097, Pizza Tycoon, Street Rod 2, Theme Park, Turok: Dinosaur Hunter, Virtua Cop 2.

It always pains me to see such (to me) new games being treated as 'classics' (because to me, they're just uninteresting crap), but apparantely, it is different with other people. I'm convinced that to most people who are into 'retrogaming' defined as most people do here will not 'switch' to anything else anymore. For a 'younger generation', these newer titles are 'retro' already though, they won't get into 'our' games though.

Even newer titles will become 'retro', too. Only again to another bunch of people. The world moves on - but people do not.

Unknown_K · 15 February 2003, 12:11

I have seen quite a few kids that are into retro/classic dos games and even old atari 2600 consoles that look very ancient to them. Since they were not even born when these items were released why do they like them?

I admit alot of new games are not that interesting but quite a few are. My interests go though quite a few evolutions of hardware/platfors/games.

If your talking about classic cars its basically anything made before a certain point in time from the present. Every year other cars are added to the classic list this way.

I think alot of people view retro games as either being on obsolete or abandoned hardware. Classics titles are just games over 5 years that were very good for their time. This is most likely because pc's and consoles have not been around as long as cars.

Items that have been around much longer (furniture plates coins) must be much older to be antique (their term for classic) while items from a few decades ago are just retro.

14 February 2003, 13:33	#57
Tim Janssen Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Den Bosch / The Netherlands Age: 47 Posts: 1,271	9-year vacuum What I actually meant with this thread is that I find it remarkable that games that were fondly remembered in gamesmagazines 9-12 years ago still are regarded as classics by the current bunch of mags. I mean, even the retro-articles are the same! Here is a perfect example: Edge July 1994 (which covered the worldwide premiere of Sony's Playstation in Japan) featured two retro articles: First was a look at Irem's R-Type 1 that appeared on homecomputers in 1988. The second article was a look at Geoff Crammond's Stunt Car Racer on Amiga and wishes of how good it would be on next-gen machines. Nine years and thousands of games later magazines like Games TM look back to the past with articles about these very games. It reads like the past nine years are a vacuum with no significant progress/innovation that has happened. Where are the retro-articles about 'significant' titles like Quake (7 years old), Half Life and MDK?

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11 February 2003, 23:31	#41
Shatterhand Warhasneverbeensomuchfun Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil Age: 41 Posts: 3,450	4 dimensions doesn't have something to do with time travel ? I remember in back to the future how Dr. Emmet Brown says Martin McFly has to think in 4 dimensions.

11 February 2003, 23:35	#42
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,644	Forget about movies, BTTF fanboi . Our world is 4 dimensional. Width, height, depth and time are the four magnitudes that supposedly compose our world. Anyway, the eye can just represent graphically the first three, and nothing else. So there's no other way to "show" things to your brain. Only possible option I could think of that might involve the 4th dimension would be a direct man-machine interface, where the machine stimulates our sense of time also. But i'm getting fucked up in the brain with these ideas, and no, I have no narcotics near me at the moment

12 February 2003, 00:33	#43
th4t1guy Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO, USA Posts: 683	What about the Fifth Dimension? And what does Aquarius have to do with video games?

12 February 2003, 15:08	#47
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	Speaking of the dimensions. Didn't the PC and Amiga have 4D sports driving? And the 5th dimension was probability. (according to hitchhiker's guide book 5) And I think the conversation strayed into holograms and such was because when the computer industry started using something like that for games any game still using 3D as we know it would be old enough to be retro.

12 February 2003, 15:14	#48
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	If I am going to go inside a game interactively as has been suggested here, I think it would be more fun to go into Robocod or Zool - or someone would need to code a Yellow Submarine game just so you could go to Pepperland in your suit. But I still can't help thinking about a game in which I must battle a dominatrix to free her bitch kingpin bevy of sluts from her rule. That would be a game ending to top all game endings. They could name it, maybe, Whorrican! (i kill me)

12 February 2003, 15:47	#49
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	Indeed. Even before that time comes though we need more silly non-too serious games. Games like Battlefield 1942, Return to castle wolfenstein and Medal of honour were games I never considered playing. I play games to get away from reality. Then why do I have to play a game going for as much reality as possible?

12 February 2003, 17:23	#50
IanS Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Nottingham England Posts: 277	3D probably won't become retro, rather the older games with the less fancy effects will. Some games just look dated compared to more recent stuff. Although gameplay is another matter... graphics don't make gameplay. I still like to play Doom occasionally. It's a simple concept, not too many puzzles and lots of movement and critical timing. Most arcade games share the last two characteristics, and the human psyche seems be drawn to that sort of thing. Let's face it, most of the popular sports involve the same sort of thing. It's not the only thing, but the dearth of 'shoote em up games' over the decades, 2D or 3D confirms it. Anyhow, I love 3D FPS games. I hate adventure games and platformers, but I like silly puzzle games like Boxworld and even minesweeper. Each to their own, as long as you enjoy it and don't hurt anybody else in the process. How about a "cruelty to sprites" campaign? "A sprite is for life, not just for Christmas!" "Don't persecute polygons... they have rights too!" I don't think many of the 3d games of the last few years follow the Doom premise exactly. The closest would be Seious Sam, which I found to be "Doom but with great graphics". Most just don't have that same frantic pace that Doom had. I still enjoy them for what they are. Just like millions of other people.

12 February 2003, 17:25	#51
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	I quite like platform games as long as you've got to do a bit of thinking and a lot of movement.

12 February 2003, 17:46	#53
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	That's what I meant from the start even if I'm an idiot with words.

12 February 2003, 18:20	#54
IanS Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Nottingham England Posts: 277	I can't figure out why I don't like platformers. With adventures and RPGs, it's because I don't think in the same way as the people who wrote the games. The puzzles just don't make sense to me most of the time. Maybe I'm too logical... 'cos my lateral thinking abilities don't kick when I'm playing them. I'm suprised that people still play them! I'll stick to FPS games and the odd bit of programming. Give me a flak cannon and some body armour and I'm happy....

12 February 2003, 18:27	#55
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	Most puzzle games build on logic. Still love the incredible machine. Ok so you had to allow for creative thinking but logic would get you darn far.

12 February 2003, 19:40	#56
IanS Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Nottingham England Posts: 277	I have to hide my face and shamefully admit that I gave up on the genre long ago. Perhaps now I'm a bit older (and wiser?) I might have more success. The same with God games... never saw the attraction of them myself. Give me Alien Breed 3D over Populous or Simcity etc. I think 3D games are here to stay, apart from games that don't really warrant it. Scrabble, Chess, board games etc work much better in 2D. Personally I love Scrabble, but the latest PC version is VERY unstable on every machine I've tried it on.

15 February 2003, 04:35	#58
th4t1guy Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO, USA Posts: 683	Quake and Half-Life are not really retro yet, even though they are fairly old. I'd guess the main reason for this is that people can still run it on their new systems without having to worry about any of the weirdness in downloading an "emulator". Take a look at everything software-wise that is considered retro. It's mainly retro because it runs on yesteryear's hardware. When people mention it, the average person might think, "oh yeah, I remember that.....back in the day...". However, they've stopped using it because they've moved onto newer technology. Will Quake and Half-Life ever become retro? Sure they will. I would almost go as far to say Quake is retro now, but Half-Life might need some more time.

15 February 2003, 11:51	#59
Mr Creosote Evil Mastermind Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Home Posts: 740	Dealing with "PC Abandonware" daily, I can assure you games like Doom and Quake are by now considered "retro" and "classics". The only reason you can't find them that often is that id is still making money off them. Here is the collection of a site which is pretty typical for the 'new generation': Battle Arena Toshinden 2, Blood, Carmageddon, Command&Conquer Gold, Commander Keen 1, Commander Keen 4, Descent, Destruction Derby, Destruction Derby 2, Dune 2: The Building Of A Dynasty, Fatal Racing (aka Whiplash), Golden Axe, Grand Prix 2, Leisure Suit Larry 1 (Remake) Leisure Suit Larry 6, Magic Carpet, Magic Carpet - Hidden Worlds, Magic Carpet 2 - Netherworlds, Need For Speed 2 - Special Edition, One Must Fall 2097, Pizza Tycoon, Street Rod 2, Theme Park, Turok: Dinosaur Hunter, Virtua Cop 2. It always pains me to see such (to me) new games being treated as 'classics' (because to me, they're just uninteresting crap), but apparantely, it is different with other people. I'm convinced that to most people who are into 'retrogaming' defined as most people do here will not 'switch' to anything else anymore. For a 'younger generation', these newer titles are 'retro' already though, they won't get into 'our' games though. Even newer titles will become 'retro', too. Only again to another bunch of people. The world moves on - but people do not.

15 February 2003, 12:11	#60
Unknown_K Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio/USA Age: 55 Posts: 1,380	I have seen quite a few kids that are into retro/classic dos games and even old atari 2600 consoles that look very ancient to them. Since they were not even born when these items were released why do they like them? I admit alot of new games are not that interesting but quite a few are. My interests go though quite a few evolutions of hardware/platfors/games. If your talking about classic cars its basically anything made before a certain point in time from the present. Every year other cars are added to the classic list this way. I think alot of people view retro games as either being on obsolete or abandoned hardware. Classics titles are just games over 5 years that were very good for their time. This is most likely because pc's and consoles have not been around as long as cars. Items that have been around much longer (furniture plates coins) must be much older to be antique (their term for classic) while items from a few decades ago are just retro.

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