applications to be dumped?

chunky_tesco · 20 September 2004, 01:25

Quote:

www.caps-project.org
Currently, applications are a no-go area. This is not just because we are only really interested in the games from that era, but it is really out of our scope. We want to preserve games how they should be preserved - in their original form. This is fairly rare because of the disk formats/protection. Protection on applications is rare.

The other issue is that some applications, at least on the Amiga, are very much alive-and-kicking, and releasing them, even if an old version, may cause the author to stop development, which in turn, would make many people very unhappy. Not to mention the fact that pirating an application still in active development and/or with "shelf-life" is just plain piracy.

Obviously applications are currently a no-go, but would you say it might be worthwhile to dump application disks? It probably won't be released any time soon, but worth dumping just in case for the future?

Apps are probably mastered in the same way as games, so it might be useful to know which ones have not been modified? Also disk structure can't be stored in adf format.

I was thinking of my workbench disks that have the write-enabled tab removed, so they are guaranteed not to have been modified by myself. Bit-rot on the other hand......

Galaxy · 20 September 2004, 04:34

I reckon apps should be included in CAPS, although perhaps under a different release catalogue - apps form a pretty important part of the Amiga's history - and should also be preserved. Think of some of the groundbreaking Amiga apps such as Deluxe Paint for example.

I would also have thought that it would be a good idea to start the dumping process off sooner rather than later - there is likely to be many more copies of games around than some of the apps.

As for the apps that are still available - it probably would not hurt to collect the dumps, and forego releasing them until some time in the future.

chunky_tesco · 20 September 2004, 08:15

Yes, I definitely agree. Although CAPS is strictly about the preservation of classic amiga games (hence the name) they do have the tools for accurate preservation of all disks.

Of course its understandable CAPS does not want to risk the excellent work its done by incurring the wrath of application developers or publishers, but it would be ok for contributors to submit RAW files of original apps purely from a preservation viewpoint. These may or may never be released, but I feel losing the ability to use amiga apps due to disks failing is just as tragic as losing games. And of course whilst in RAW format these dumps are useless to anybody except CAPS.

fiath · 20 September 2004, 09:23

This is currently under consideration. I'm not sure I can say (because I don't really know) any more than that.

Galaxy · 20 September 2004, 10:20

Quote:

C.A.P.S., the Classic Amiga Preservation Society, as the name implies, dedicates itself to the preservation of classic software for the future, currently classic Amiga games.

The CAPS team chose their name well - definitely leaving the door open for things other than games. I suspect though that the amount of time available to the CAPS team might be a governing factor in whether they do apps...

chunky_tesco · 20 September 2004, 10:30

The way I see it is that the with increasing likelyhood disks are going bad, we do the dumps now so that if/when CAPS or whoever takes this task on, they have something to work from. ( even if its years from now)

fiath · 20 September 2004, 12:00

@Galaxy
Yes, time is certainly a factor. With a little more time, you would probably know the outcome by now.

@chunky_tesco
That is certainly the more forward-thinking approach.

22 September 2004, 12:46

Never mind Amiga apps, how about Commodore 64 floppies? They are pretty near to extinction now...

chunky_tesco · 22 September 2004, 16:57

maybe caps could have a database list (a bit like the games one), listing all the dumped apps with version and revision numbers. this would show which versions have definitely been dumped and are 100% and unmodified.

Since *ALL* apps have no copy protection, the owner can quite easily adf his disk, safe in the knowledge it is 100%. This way caps can verify apps for the original owners, without the risky business of releasing ipfs. Also caps gets raw dumps which is probably very valuable for preservation puroposes.

Whether the dumps gets released as ipf can be something for the future....?

IFW · 22 September 2004, 19:25

I wouldn't say application are not protected: one instant example is Pix-mate that is Copylock'ed, TFMX using a TTL dongle, another music program that I can't recall using a custom disk format etc.
We'll only know what was the real trend if they get dumped.

As for the rest of the discussion we'll see.

IFW · 13 October 2004, 03:50

FYI: The C64 Emulator by ReadySoft is heavily protected.

mark_k · 13 October 2004, 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunky_tesco

maybe caps could have a database list (a bit like the games one), listing all the dumped apps with version and revision numbers. this would show which versions have definitely been dumped and are 100% and unmodified.

Since *ALL* apps have no copy protection, the owner can quite easily adf his disk, safe in the knowledge it is 100%. This way caps can verify apps for the original owners, without the risky business of releasing ipfs. Also caps gets raw dumps which is probably very valuable for preservation puroposes.

Whether the dumps gets released as ipf can be something for the future....?

Not to mention... Most apps are unprotected. If CAPS only send IPF files to the owner of the original, there is no additional distribution/piracy risk. (The owner could spread ADF images of the disks, so existence of IPF files doesn't matter either way.)

Maybe someone could make a list of apps which are still being sold? I doubt any copy-protected ones are still marketed.

-- M

IFW · 13 October 2004, 06:26

Actually many 3d and speech apps these days are protected with dongles of various kinds, like Sentinel. Also it is common to make something so prohibitively expensive that the company buying the product would kill anyone distributing the normally watermarked binaries, such as development kits.
... but this is all irrevelant to old amiga stuff of course

Pretty much all the games exist in cracked form, so in that sense the existence of the original material imaged is much better and has high educational and research values.

Classifying applications as active or not may be helpful, if something was not updated in a few years time chances are it never will be - at least not on the original platform anyway (see DOpus, Lightvawe, 3d Studio Max etc). But can we really say they are "inactive" applications?
In case of Deluxe Paint and similar tools the answer however is much easier.

Codetapper · 13 October 2004, 07:42

The music app you are referring to is probably Digital Mugician which is custom MFM. Also with Amiga apps like DPaint, it makes sense to spread the serial/key with it so that the disk is usable, but that might cause some kind of piracy issues. Although lets face it, would Electronic Arts sue because an ancient program like DPaint is spread with a valid key?

andreas · 13 October 2004, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by IFW

I wouldn't say application are not protected: one instant example is Pix-mate that is Copylock'ed, TFMX using a TTL dongle, another music program that I can't recall using a custom disk format etc.

Wasn't Aegis' Sonix protected too?!
At least a copy of the 2.0 version made from my pal's original back then produced total crap and was unusable. (Until I could grab a crack later on in 1989.)
Also consider Audio Master, from same publisher.

Galaxy · 13 October 2004, 15:18

I've got an original (or two) of Sonix, and I don't recall any protection. I also have vague recollections of some paint program that had disk protection - perhaps Photon Paint.

As for stuff still being published, or by companies still in existence, there is scope for getting permission, although the fact that CAPS images are distributed by the CAPS team only to the owners of the software would probably be acceptable.

Stuff from defunct companies could probably be treated in the same way as games.

20 September 2004, 09:23	#4
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	This is currently under consideration. I'm not sure I can say (because I don't really know) any more than that. Last edited by fiath; 20 September 2004 at 12:00.

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20 September 2004, 04:34	#2
Galaxy Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Canberra, Australia Age: 46 Posts: 1,417	I reckon apps should be included in CAPS, although perhaps under a different release catalogue - apps form a pretty important part of the Amiga's history - and should also be preserved. Think of some of the groundbreaking Amiga apps such as Deluxe Paint for example. I would also have thought that it would be a good idea to start the dumping process off sooner rather than later - there is likely to be many more copies of games around than some of the apps. As for the apps that are still available - it probably would not hurt to collect the dumps, and forego releasing them until some time in the future.

20 September 2004, 08:15	#3
chunky_tesco Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 71	Yes, I definitely agree. Although CAPS is strictly about the preservation of classic amiga games (hence the name) they do have the tools for accurate preservation of all disks. Of course its understandable CAPS does not want to risk the excellent work its done by incurring the wrath of application developers or publishers, but it would be ok for contributors to submit RAW files of original apps purely from a preservation viewpoint. These may or may never be released, but I feel losing the ability to use amiga apps due to disks failing is just as tragic as losing games. And of course whilst in RAW format these dumps are useless to anybody except CAPS.

20 September 2004, 10:30	#6
chunky_tesco Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 71	The way I see it is that the with increasing likelyhood disks are going bad, we do the dumps now so that if/when CAPS or whoever takes this task on, they have something to work from. ( even if its years from now)

20 September 2004, 12:00	#7
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	@Galaxy Yes, time is certainly a factor. With a little more time, you would probably know the outcome by now. @chunky_tesco That is certainly the more forward-thinking approach.

22 September 2004, 12:46	#8
bigmax Posts: n/a	Never mind Amiga apps, how about Commodore 64 floppies? They are pretty near to extinction now...

22 September 2004, 16:57	#9
chunky_tesco Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 71	maybe caps could have a database list (a bit like the games one), listing all the dumped apps with version and revision numbers. this would show which versions have definitely been dumped and are 100% and unmodified. Since ALL apps have no copy protection, the owner can quite easily adf his disk, safe in the knowledge it is 100%. This way caps can verify apps for the original owners, without the risky business of releasing ipfs. Also caps gets raw dumps which is probably very valuable for preservation puroposes. Whether the dumps gets released as ipf can be something for the future....?

22 September 2004, 19:25	#10
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	I wouldn't say application are not protected: one instant example is Pix-mate that is Copylock'ed, TFMX using a TTL dongle, another music program that I can't recall using a custom disk format etc. We'll only know what was the real trend if they get dumped. As for the rest of the discussion we'll see.

13 October 2004, 03:50	#11
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	FYI: The C64 Emulator by ReadySoft is heavily protected.

13 October 2004, 06:26	#13
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Actually many 3d and speech apps these days are protected with dongles of various kinds, like Sentinel. Also it is common to make something so prohibitively expensive that the company buying the product would kill anyone distributing the normally watermarked binaries, such as development kits. ... but this is all irrevelant to old amiga stuff of course Pretty much all the games exist in cracked form, so in that sense the existence of the original material imaged is much better and has high educational and research values. Classifying applications as active or not may be helpful, if something was not updated in a few years time chances are it never will be - at least not on the original platform anyway (see DOpus, Lightvawe, 3d Studio Max etc). But can we really say they are "inactive" applications? In case of Deluxe Paint and similar tools the answer however is much easier.

13 October 2004, 07:42	#14
Codetapper 2 contact me: email only! Join Date: May 2001 Location: Auckland / New Zealand Posts: 3,182	The music app you are referring to is probably Digital Mugician which is custom MFM. Also with Amiga apps like DPaint, it makes sense to spread the serial/key with it so that the disk is usable, but that might cause some kind of piracy issues. Although lets face it, would Electronic Arts sue because an ancient program like DPaint is spread with a valid key?

13 October 2004, 15:18	#16
Galaxy Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Canberra, Australia Age: 46 Posts: 1,417	I've got an original (or two) of Sonix, and I don't recall any protection. I also have vague recollections of some paint program that had disk protection - perhaps Photon Paint. As for stuff still being published, or by companies still in existence, there is scope for getting permission, although the fact that CAPS images are distributed by the CAPS team only to the owners of the software would probably be acceptable. Stuff from defunct companies could probably be treated in the same way as games.

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