Amstrad CPC 464 - 30 years old this month

[Cpt. Hindsight]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

I hope this explains mostly everything about CPC and C64 ...

Comparing C64 to CPC -> http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Comparing_C64_to_CPC

Games Crossdev -> http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Games_Crossdev

I didn't have a look at the links, but I guess I know the result if cpcwiki compares them. They are probably the most nonbiased site ever.

Nice try.

[amilo3438]

Regardless, so let the final conclusion bring every one for himself !!!

Let's say for example the Amstrad Plus, even though it has a much better technical characteristics, does anyone ever bothered to use them and make something special ???

p.s.
For me an Amstrad is something like Super-Spectrum, in some ways better, in some not. (perhaps more for business than for gaming)


Edit: Reasons for a Spectrum Port -> http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Speccy_Port

A typical port to the Amstrad is said to have been done in 3 days so was financially good.

Edit2: What the C64 has brought in VideoGame History -> http://perso.numericable.fr/~ckckck/...RealGames.html

Question: What an Amstrad has brought in VideoGame History !?

[hansel75]

I would think the fairest comparison is a basic cpc 464 vs the c64!

And despite the 464 having certain hardware aspects that look better on paper, the software said otherwise.

And considering that there was a huge amount of games that relied on scrolling and sprites with smooth movement for better playability, that lack of hardware support for them on the 464 was ultimately it's downfall.

The c64 with it's hardware scrolling and sprites made it look easy, and then you count in all the tricks they could do on the c64 on top of the hardware support it already had, it was easier and more flexible to do almost arcade quality games on it!

464 owners can claim they have the superior 4mhz cpu and think the c64 is weak with only a 1mhz cpu, but considering the cpu in the 464 has to do pretty much everything in software, like software sprites and scrolling etc, that extra cpu speed is now redundant!

And sure, there are apparently some obscure hardware scrolling methods on the 464, but you could probably count the amount of games and demos that used these tricks on one hand!

This is why i mentioned earlier that the 464 vs the c64 was similar to the st vs amiga.

The 464 and the st had faster cpu's in them, but they lack hardware support for all the important stuff when it comes to games.

Both the c64 and amiga have dedicated chips and hardware support so games are much easier to make, and they end up looking better and smoother then the 464 and st versions.

Also the colour palette on the 464's seems like overkill to me, the colours almost look fluorescent!

You simply couldn't do a more earthy, realistic look for games that needed it with a palette like that, take a look at platoon on both the c64 and the 464 to see what i mean.
The 464 versions fluorescent green forest and bright yellow dirt almost blinds you and looks more like avatar then platoon.

While the c64 version of platoon is much more realistic and natural looking!
And once again, here is another c64 game that is faster, has smoother scrolling, better sound and higher res sprites, this was typical of most cross platform games!

The only game styles the 464(and spectrum) could do better in were games like flick screen adventures, isometric games and 3d vector games.
But even then there are plenty of examples that show the c64 matching the other systems in these areas(head over heels, stunt car racer etc).

Plus flick screen and isometric games faded out over time once the arcade conversions started to flood in, and also because there was only so many variations on those styles that could be used before they became samey and boring!
And 3d vector games only accounted for a tiny fraction of all games.

Also it doesn't matter what excuse was given for porting a lot of games from the spectrum to the 464, and in the end specs don't really matter either i guess, it's the quality of the software that does.
And we didn't get a c64 so we could play half of our games in monochrome spectrum mode, with beeps and bops for sound and jerky movement, unfortunately for 464 owners that's often what was given to them.

Plus how many cpc 464 owners were there back in the day that actually used a colour screen, and not the crappy green monochrome screen!

64 FTW

Edit- Lol Neil, maybe you should see if you can get the thread name changed to this- "Amstrad CPC 464 - 30 years old this month, Revives 30 year old 8bit fanboy war!"

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by hansel75

Snip tl;dr

And some of us didn't give a crap and owned all of them at one point or another. Having owned most of the 8bits, I have to say that the Spectrum was without a doubt the only one that I still go back to.

D.

[Neil79]

Originally Posted by hansel75

"Amstrad CPC 464 - 30 years old this month, Revives 30 year old 8bit fanboy war!"

Yes I can't say I expected the thread to turn out like this! Certainly makes for a more enjoyable evening though

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by tomcat666

Nope, the game is running in 25 fps, nothing to do with youtube. 50 fps scroll would be twice as fast as the one in the game. If you save the video in the emulator you will see that each two frames are the same.

The coder made it to run on 50fps on real hardware. You're wrong here.

Emulators are not replicating perfectly the CRTC emulation and timing. That why they also ask to play R-type 2012 on a real CPC and not an emulator.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Neil79

Great demos, but again they were developed by C64 users for the C64... Maybe they should also develop for the CPC and see what it can do

Yes true, in the links provided by Hansel75, there is no tricks the CPC can't do. the CPC has software sprites, right, but for everything else it has hardware abilities via the CRTC (display copper-like video chip). Most CPC demos relies on it.

As you say, they would be amazed if they knew how to code on CPC.

[Coltch]

Never owned a cpc, a friend had one (6128) and I remember Cauldron being much better on the cpc than the C64.

I went from a ZX81 to a Speccy which was a huge jump but was envious of my mates C64 and eventually ended up getting one.

The one area that the C64 ruled over all the other 8-bit machines was in RPGs.

I think the CPC is unfairly looked at in comparison to both the Speccy and C64, it could do so much more but was never really pushed...the C64 and Speccy were the big hitters (in the UK anyway), so developers went for them as far as games go. If you look at Monty on the Run the C64/Speccy are quite similar graphically but the CPC version looks awful ...soundwise the cpc does a good job but cant match the C64.

[dlfrsilver]

@coltch : ahhh at last a well said comment. This is something else than what we usually hear from C64 fanbois

The Batman Forever programmer said in the demo that commercial CPC games used only 6% of the CPC abilities, this must explain that.....

[LieutLaww]

My best m8 had a CPC 464 he even had the colour monitor too ! We played that machine to death lol

[kamelito]

http://www.norecess.net/interview-rhino.html
http://www.pushnpop.net/articles-32.html

[dlfrsilver]

indeed :

4/ It seems that you tried to draw attention on CPC with your demo, for example, by giving some exaggerate information (only 6% of capacities of CPC used by the commercial software!), or multiply by 4 then 6 the number of dots really displayed on screen. What was your main goal by doing that? Giving an “everything is possible on CPC” message for the other scenes?

"Rhino: You are right, I think that many people may have noticed my purpose to draw attention on the capabilities of the CPC, especially to impress the C64 scene. The choice of the effects was conditioned by the idea of demonstrating that CPC is better than C64 almost in every aspect. For example, color (703 colors), resolution and text mode (192x54 text mode), processing power (zoomers, 3d objects, dots...) ...".

another piece of text :

"I think that recently there are people trying to make my 3D Batlogo using optimized animation techniques on C64 without success... LOL

Maybe it's something else than another raster and a simple “animation” with little technical after all. The truth is that I used lot of innovative techniques that exploit simultaneously the Z80, CRTC and Gate Array to render effects of size and speed never seen on CPC, mixing optimized real-time (soft) and advanced hardware techniques (hard) to improve the performance. If anyone thinks that it lacks of technical approach, I respect his opinion and I congratulate him for being someone else demanding than me, but I disagree. And, of course, to say that "From Scratch" is technically superior to BF, as Longshot said, is not acceptable from any objective view.

[hansel75]

Here is what i have an issue with, the Batman cpc demo keeps getting mentioned again and again, yet apart from some nice looking effects, i don't see much in the demo that could be used in a game.

Things like smooth scrolling and sprite routines are lacking.
The fancy plasmas, twisty effects and nice still pics may look good but aren't practical for games.

Where is a lot of C64 demos display amazing scrolling and sprite routines(as well as plasmas etc), and these same routines can be applied to games.
And there have been a few demo makers on the c64 that have progressed onto making games, and the games were technically great!

Also this statement- "The Batman Forever programmer said in the demo that commercial CPC games used only 6% of the CPC abilities, this must explain that".
To take everything this man says as gospel is stretching things a little i think, sure there is some truth to what he is saying, but this is one guy within the last 30yrs to claim games only used 6%.
Could this batman guy make a smooth scrolling arcade game with lots of sprites to the same quality as his batman demo?

I keep hearing the usual lame cpc game excuses, speccy ports, lazy coders etc, but what about the exclusive cpc games that came out only on amstrad?
Surely these games would of taken more advantage of the cpc, yet most are technically lame!

And again, the effects he used in his batman demo don't represent what games required.
Show me some demos on the cpc that have plenty of scrolling and sprite routines that match the C64, something that's practical in games as well!

Also games that required good scrolling and sprites cannot be underestimated on 8bit systems, as there were so many games that required it!

In the end it comes down to software, would you rather have one awesome demo or hundreds?
And sure the vast amount of cpc games could of been much better, but they weren't and that's what your stuck with playing no matter how many "What if's" are used.

And what i find most amazing is that the older, supposedly slower/inferior C64 can keep up with the very best the cpc has to offer, and most games on the C64 are far superior!

Edit- The funny thing is now that my Commodore collection is complete, i was actually contemplating a CPC 464 as my next buy for my retro collection! Call me crazy lol!

[lordofchaos]

Whilst on the subject of the CPC, can anybody recommend the best emulator for windows?

[dlfrsilver]

Mhhh not easy at all. most emulators have strengths, but there is none that get on the top. CPCE is the best one for tape reading, as well as sound. Sugarbox and CPC++ are almost perfect on FDC side, and CRTC (mostly, not perfect).

[lordofchaos]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

Mhhh not easy at all. most emulators have strengths, but there is none that get on the top. CPCE is the best one for tape reading, as well as sound. Sugarbox and CPC++ are almost perfect on FDC side, and CRTC (mostly, not perfect).

What one would you recommend for watching demos, looking for most accurate one overall.

[dlfrsilver]

try CPC++ or Sugarbox.

[lordofchaos]

Thanks! I`ll check them out.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

the CPC has software sprites, right, but for everything else it has hardware abilities via the CRTC (display copper-like video chip).

where did you get this information ? (CRTC similar to copper-like video chip)

p.s. As far as I know about Amiga, the copper is an co-processor integrated into Agnus chip and Denise is a video chip.


Edit:
List of home computers by video hardware -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...video_hardware
Video display controller -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_display_controller

[kamelito]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

try CPC++ or Sugarbox.

Any thoughts of Ace for Morphos? http://ace.cpcscene.com/en:introduction Kamelito