GRIND : a Doom-like, first person shooter for a500!

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Tsak

Also after an intense month of hard work (and much preparation before), the new Chaingun design is finally ready!

Now, that's one sexy chaingun!
Kudos bro!

Question about engine:
Can it support camera shake?
I guess it could add a lot to the feeling, while you are being hit from enemy, or when you throw a missile type of weapon... or maybe even some level design could justify shaking in some parts.

[gimbal]

And it looks like an actual minigun and not some plastic toy (with matching sound effect) like in Doom

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by gimbal

And it looks like an actual minigun and not some plastic toy (with matching sound effect) like in Doom

Actual miniguns don't look anything like as cool. The M134 is the prototypical example.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Karlos

I think the vector models probably saved on memory too, since each frame is a relatively small amount of data. I does make me wonder what it could have looked like using the lightsourced bitmap rendering.

Bah, with 2mb available RAM any upkeep cost for weapon sprites is literally peanuts. It's already small enough for Grind and we have to cram them within 512k only (among all other stuff).

Afaik the 2mb version of TKG doesn't even include any weapons, does it? So we're talking about 4mb fast which makes the cost even more insignificant.

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Question about engine:
Can it support camera shake?
I guess it could add a lot to the feeling, while you are being hit from enemy, or when you throw a missile type of weapon... or maybe even some level design could justify shaking in some parts.

I'm 99% certain that horizontal shaking is possible. Vertical might be possible as well by shifting the display perhaps? At some point we will be looking at screenshake anyhow as this feature is already in our list.

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Tsak

Bah, with 2mb available RAM any upkeep cost for weapon sprites is literally peanuts. It's already small enough for Grind and we have to cram them within 512k only (among all other stuff).

True. It was only a passing observation about memory, I don't claim it's why they chose it. Assume for a moment, however, they were fully lightsourced graphics, there'd be 5 separate bitmaps per frame. It would weigh in at more than you might expect, even if not a huge amount.

Afaik the 2mb version of TKG doesn't even include any weapons, does it? So we're talking about 4mb fast which makes the cost even more insignificant.

I don't remember the 2MB version and you can't make me! We literally purged it from the build.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Karlos

True. It was only a passing observation about memory, I don't claim it's why they chose it. Assume for a moment, however, they were fully lightsourced graphics, there'd be 5 separate bitmaps per frame. It would weigh in at more than you might expect, even if not a huge amount.

Unless you are talking about real-time, directional 3d light (in which case I wonder, are 5 bitmaps even enough?), changing light levels with weapon sprites is as easy as simply replacing/changing their palettes. In which case you don't need separate bitmaps

In fact we already do that with Grind (weapons already flash/change lightness levels when they shoot), except the engine doesn't know (yet) on what light level sector you are on so we can do it with map lights as well.

Originally Posted by Karlos

I don't remember the 2MB version and you can't make me! We literally purged it from the build.

He, he

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Tsak

Unless you are talking about real-time, directional 3d light (in which case I wonder, are 5 bitmaps even enough?), changing light levels with weapon sprites is as easy as simply replacing/changing their palettes. In which case you don't need separate bitmaps

I am talking about real-time directional 3d light, as used for the majority of the alien sprites. The game uses one bitmap that is a basic colourmap (a bit too basic actually - only 8 colours out of 32, as there are 4 "variation" palettes then) and 4 additional greyscale alabaster images from top/bottom/left/right lighting directions that it interpolates between, based on the approximate overall lighting direction. The way the assets were created for this was by using a 3D program to render models. The colourmap was at full ambient brightness and the light maps are untextured with infinitely distant parallel light sources.

If it weren't for the silly lack of rotational views, it could have been really special. Another enhancement for the list, but I don't think the original 3D models are in the source dump.

In fact we already do that with Grind (weapons already flash/change lightness levels when they shoot), except the engine doesn't know (yet) on what light level sector you are on so we can do it with map lights as well.

Ironically, there is an issue with the rendering of "simple" bitmaps in TKG that they are seemingly almost always close to full brightness. That's why the red dogs are so visible from any distance under any lighting condition. It's only minorly annoying which is why I've not dug too deep into it yet. I would rather create a lightsourced replacement for those.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Karlos

I am talking about real-time directional 3d light, as used for the majority of the alien sprites. The game uses one bitmap that is a basic colourmap (a bit too basic actually - only 8 colours out of 32, as there are 4 "variation" palettes then) and 4 additional greyscale alabaster images from top/bottom/left/right lighting directions that it interpolates between, based on the approximate overall lighting direction. The way the assets were created for this was by using a 3D program to render models. The colourmap was at full ambient brightness and the light maps are untextured with infinitely distant parallel light sources.

If it weren't for the silly lack of rotational views, it could have been really special. Another enhancement for the list, but I don't think the original 3D models are in the source dump.

Very interesting. Honestly I suspected the game has this feature but I was just uncertain about it. Imagine I have also finished the game myself on max settings (several moons ago) but never really noticed it. But yeah, upon closer inspection I see it now. I guess my take is that eventually it is the art side that matters the most, so between features like that and 2d but better looking weapon designs, I would probably opt for the latter.

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by Karlos

Actual miniguns don't look anything like as cool. The M134 is the prototypical example.

An actual video game minigun. Escapism is the key. Reality. Blegh.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Karlos

I don't remember the 2MB version and you can't make me! We literally purged it from the build.

Wait, so there was a 2MB TKG version for real?
We are talking about 2MB Chip, not added 2MB Fast? We are talking about TKG for vanilla A1200?
Back in the day, I haven't even tried to install it on my vanilla A1200, because I've read in the magazines it require at least 4MB fast, but I am curious how bad it would crawl on plain A1200 , considering that even original AB3D was pretty damn slow (but I enjoyed that game very much, nevertheless).
I've tried to google it... and it seems that is 2MB version really exist, but I couldn't find a youtube video to see how it really performs.
Btw... while searching and watching videos of TKG... damn... these lightning effects in TKG was so impressive, considering the time they were created... wow...
I could run Winuae and test it myself... but then again... everything above 68000 emulation, seems to run a bit faster then on real hardware, so that wouldn't be of much realistic.

Originally Posted by Tsak

I'm 99% certain that horizontal shaking is possible. Vertical might be possible as well by shifting the display perhaps? At some point we will be looking at screenshake anyhow as this feature is already in our list.

That's amazing to hear.
Everything you guys did so far is far above excellent.
Any chance that there will be level editor... or... let me be even more greedy and ungrateful ... levels that we could make with our own textures, our own level design, sprites, and our own quests? Release our own games?
I know KK already released something similar, and we talked about it, and I even created some test level in it.
But I am talking about something more rounded... where we could use our own palettes... pretty much everything that KK released, but.. more intuitive to use, and with engine changes you are doing all the time.
What KK released for level building, is great... but I am not sure if it's enough that someone create complete game from the scratch, without him, or you guys helping.

If the answer is no - I completely understand.
And will buy the game anyway, and will (if finances let me) give some hefty bonus.
After all, you're so busy trying to make this game (as a game) works in it's full capacity, and other stuff are secondary (and I'd do the same as you, if I would be in the same position).

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Wait, so there was a 2MB TKG version for real?

It came as a separate floppy disk. You had the 2MB version and the 4MB FAST versions, the data disks were used by both. I remember going from a vanilla stock 1200 to one with a 50MHz 030 and Fast RAM, it was like night and day in TKG.

[Karlos]

Yep, there was a 2MB chip ram only version and it had a lot taken out. No floor or ceiling graphics, no lightsourced bitmaps, wall textures reduced to 1/4 res, no weapon view model. It was in almost every way a step down from AB3D1, visually.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Karlos

Yep, there was a 2MB chip ram only version and it had a lot taken out. No floor or ceiling graphics, no lightsourced bitmaps, wall textures reduced to 1/4 res, no weapon view model. It was in almost every way a step down from AB3D1, visually.

And what was a goal of that version?
Laugh upon us that have only A1200 with 2MB?
I remember how painful was to play AB3D on my plain A1200...

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

And what was a goal of that version?
Laugh upon us that have only A1200 with 2MB?
I remember how painful was to play AB3D on my plain A1200...

Tbh, it was probably "if we release this game and it's only for 4MB FastRAM Amigas, we won't sell any. If we sell a version that runs on a stock 1200 with it then we'll sell more"

Expanded A1200s were pretty rare especially at the time the original released, at least around our way; I didn't pick up my first HDD until '96 and I was the first to do so amongst my friend group. My 1230 didn't come until xmas '97.

[Karlos]

Exactly that. Plus you'd have an excuse to upgrade, since your save game slots would work on either version. Anyway I hadn't intended to hijack this thread, there are two others for it.

[Karlos]

@Tsak

Are there any plans to enhance the game for machines with more memory? Not that it needs to, I'm just curious.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Wait, so there was a 2MB TKG version for real?
We are talking about 2MB Chip, not added 2MB Fast? We are talking about TKG for vanilla A1200?
Back in the day, I haven't even tried to install it on my vanilla A1200, because I've read in the magazines it require at least 4MB fast, but I am curious how bad it would crawl on plain A1200 , considering that even original AB3D was pretty damn slow (but I enjoyed that game very much, nevertheless).
I've tried to google it... and it seems that is 2MB version really exist, but I couldn't find a youtube video to see how it really performs.
Btw... while searching and watching videos of TKG... damn... these lightning effects in TKG was so impressive, considering the time they were created... wow...
I could run Winuae and test it myself... but then again... everything above 68000 emulation, seems to run a bit faster then on real hardware, so that wouldn't be of much realistic.

Here's footage from the 2mb version
I'm not sure this is the actual performance on vanilla a1200s but this is how it looked in general.
[ Show youtube player ]

As for why they did it, as previously noted they most surely went with it only to get sales from unexpanded machine owners. Within the already diminishing Amiga market they just knew pretty well they would not do many sales if they relied on accelerated machines only. Indeed it is a massive downgrade but at least the game is playable. On the flip side the 4mb version really needed 040 and above to be even remotely playable. The game was notoriously slow in general even on 060s, so 030 owners were already at a massive disadvantage with it, practically making the 2mb version a must for them as well.

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

That's amazing to hear.
Everything you guys did so far is far above excellent.
Any chance that there will be level editor... or... let me be even more greedy and ungrateful ... levels that we could make with our own textures, our own level design, sprites, and our own quests? Release our own games?
I know KK already released something similar, and we talked about it, and I even created some test level in it.
But I am talking about something more rounded... where we could use our own palettes... pretty much everything that KK released, but.. more intuitive to use, and with engine changes you are doing all the time.
What KK released for level building, is great... but I am not sure if it's enough that someone create complete game from the scratch, without him, or you guys helping.

If the answer is no - I completely understand.
And will buy the game anyway, and will (if finances let me) give some hefty bonus.
After all, you're so busy trying to make this game (as a game) works in it's full capacity, and other stuff are secondary (and I'd do the same as you, if I would be in the same position).

I don't have any real objection to release the sources (once the game is ready) but at the same time I don't plan to spend time making them fully user friendly, writing detailed documentation and making sure each and every aspect of it is moddable from within the tool and with definition scripts only (more so since such a work does not depend on me but on the coders working on the engine). So even if the sources are released, I still expect some level of difficulty for end users with no real experience or coding knowhow to dive into them to make a real total conversion. Hopefully KK has not abandoned making the Dread engine fully moddable though. He is already working on a new tool that should allow much more control and more user friendly functionality. But there is no guarantee this will come anytime soon (let alone the engine itself becoming more complete to include the super important stuff it currently misses).

On this matter in general, I have to say that I find the idea of the game and engine being fully user friendly and moddable quite respectable. But to be honest I was from the start against making this an actual priority. KK was imagining that by making the engine this way he would manage to mobilize various people to help with the game's creation, making it a true community effort. I knew on the other hand that such a project would need massive dedication from actual experts and game devs to get it close to the standards we aspired to reach. And in no way the Amiga community is big enough to make such a difficult task happen. I mean sure, we do have many talented and driven individuals, but the reality is that most would just see this as a novelty. Perhaps toy a bit with it, make a couple maps and such but not actually dedicate serious time for the full deal. And you simply cannot have a rigid artistic vision and a high quality, fully realized result by relying on part time contributors from a small pool like that.

In the end these are two clashing goals unfortunately (making a full game vs a general purpose- fully moddable game engine). If we just focused on the actual game from the get go (instead of pushing the public SDK agenda and community effort idea), chances are that development on both the game and engine would have progressed much more than now. Again (and to be cear) it's not that I am (or ever was) against the public SDK goals in general, just saying that making that a priority seems like placing the horse behind the carriage. I.e. it would make much better sense to make the full game first and then consider opening it for actual modding.

Originally Posted by Karlos

@Tsak

Are there any plans to enhance the game for machines with more memory? Not that it needs to, I'm just curious.

This means more assets, different maps and eventually even more base game versions than now (we also have to deal with the ST and Mega Drive ones which already add a lot to the workload). So probably not. Additional enhancements of any kind will only be considered once the base game and versions are ready. In addition to that I would also like to see if anything could be done to improve performance on 020 and above or even tap on some of AGA's potential, but only if this does not require extra assets or considerably additional work. Otherwise a follow up version (or even a second installment) which does focus on expanded machines could also happen if the game succeeds and the demand is there.

[Karlos]

Here's footage from the 2mb version

Oh god, it's all coming back to me... Make it stop

[DisasterIncarna]

Originally Posted by Karlos

Oh god, it's all coming back to me... Make it stop

kinda bad its not far off the level of some c64 fps games/demos like Doom and the more recent Grey.

Doom
[ Show youtube player ]

Grey
[ Show youtube player ]

The Red Serpent Invasion
[ Show youtube player ]

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Tsak

I don't have any real objection to release the sources (once the game is ready) but at the same time I don't plan to spend time making them fully user friendly, writing detailed documentation and making sure each and every aspect of it is moddable from within the tool and with definition scripts only (more so since such a work does not depend on me but on the coders working on the engine). So even if the sources are released, I still expect some level of difficulty for end users with no real experience or coding knowhow to dive into them to make a real total conversion. Hopefully KK has not abandoned making the Dread engine fully moddable though. He is already working on a new tool that should allow much more control and more user friendly functionality. But there is no guarantee this will come anytime soon (let alone the engine itself becoming more complete to include the super important stuff it currently misses).

Thanks for the detailed answer bro.
And you know what? It's a perfect answer, that I have hoped for.
Fully agreed with your choice that the game should be top priority, and only later (after the bugs are fixed, and after all of your team is even much more familiar with engine) you can think of SDK, and/or pushing the Aga limits... or even before that... figuring out the stairs.. height.. with KK... and after figuring all out... making Dread 2 (with stairs ) and then releasing SDK.
I know it takes years and years... and I am very grateful for the work you, and your team have done so far.


After all, we already have SDK KK gave us, and it's in great state for anyone wanting to experiment... create a level.. texture it... etc.
Personally.. without too much experience, it was pretty straight-forward for me to create demo level... the only thing that bothered me is how to change the color palette, but thanks to the good guys from Discord, I figured it out.

Keep up the awesome work Tsak!