01 August 2015, 15:35 | #1 |
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Buster chip replacement project
Hi people,
I've been thinking about an idea I had recently: Would it be technically possible to produce a Buster replacement chip for the A4000 (maybe A3000 too), which would keep the compatibility but improve the performance? So I talked to Dave Haynie the other day and he verified that yes, that could be done. He also mentioned that he was thinking of something similar himself. :-) My idea was that if enough people are interested in this, we could organize a Kickstarter (or other crowdfunding) campaign to fund it. If Dave would be interested in designing this, it would be great opportunity to "do things right". We could have the Zorro busboard and any cards on it to perform at their maximum potential. Of course, if not enough people are interested this would probably not work. So, I posted a relevant question on the "Commodore Amiga" facebook group and I've started posting this on a few forums as well, just to see what kind of reactions we'll get. Note: I am not a hardware guy myself (more of a software one) and have no previous experience with Kickstarter as an organizer. If people with more experience in these fields would like to help, that would be greatly appreciated. So, what do you think? |
01 August 2015, 16:27 | #2 |
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This would be great
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01 August 2015, 17:16 | #3 |
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Given the struggle faced by the new A1200 cases kickstarter I 'm prettuy sure a Buster chip kickstarter will not succeed.
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01 August 2015, 18:08 | #4 |
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You'll never raise the money to make a 5v tolerant ASIC. We would be taking hundreds of thousands of dollars.
You'd have to use a CPLD/FPGA. But you may as well recreate the whole Amiga. Add to that, too few Amiga users have an Amiga which uses a buster chip. A3000 / A4000. This would have to be a hobby project, labour of love. |
02 August 2015, 20:40 | #5 |
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I think you should build a board that holds a CPLD/FPGA solution that can be plugged into the original buster socket, a lot cheaper than creating a new chip.
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02 August 2015, 22:48 | #6 |
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Thanks for all the feedback.
I think the idea is to go for a CPLD/FPGA solution anyway, though it's not determined in what form yet. There's an interesting discussion going on over at A1k.org's forum as well, where Jens has some interesting insights to offer. Here's the thread there if you're interested: http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread....233#post855233 |
03 August 2015, 21:31 | #7 |
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Not all of us have a socketed Buster (even with a replaced 11 I don't).
Any chance of a "vampire" style clamp-on solution that you press onto the original? |
03 August 2015, 22:50 | #8 |
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Most have socketted busters. I thought only A4000D-CR has soldered buster?
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04 August 2015, 02:15 | #9 |
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The repair shop elected to solder mine in place.
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04 August 2015, 09:51 | #10 |
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04 August 2015, 10:13 | #11 |
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04 August 2015, 13:24 | #12 |
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Unfortunately people have a habit of over-estimating the Amiga market, which is why most new products and kickstarters never take off. The people behind the projects have the technical know-how, but not the economic skills to establish if it is feasible.
The A1200 housing project is a good example - 125,000 euro target for a 79 euro product requires over 1,500 sales. Yes of course a few people will pay more for the 'special editions' but most people just want the product. Simple maths like this show that it's not realistic, there are not 1,500 Amiga 1200 users that want a new case. I'd be surprised if there are more than a couple of thousand active Amiga hardware users in total across all systems. |
04 August 2015, 18:51 | #13 | |
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1) Simple Buster replacement using FPGA + fully programmable and customizable + simplest and cheapest solution - voltage regulator probably needed - socket and surface mount Buster variations increase production costs - possible connection problems with a clip on for surface mount Busters - minimal speed gains while maintaining Zorro compatibility 2) Buster replacement using FPGA with PCI slots added + fully programmable and customizable + PCI gives major speed increase and cheap commodity PC hardware + good compatibility is possible as speedup is with PCI instead of Zorro - voltage regulator probably needed - socket and surface mount Buster variations increase production costs - possible connection problems with a clip on for surface mount Busters - added complexity and cost with PCI - best PCI slot locations vary by Amiga model and may need cabling 3) FPGA accelerator card with PCI slots added + fully programmable and customizable + huge speedup is possible for CPU and I/O + PCI gives major speed increase and cheap commodity PC hardware + good compatibility is possible as speedup is with PCI instead of Zorro + socket or surface mount Buster doesn't matter - much more complexity and added cost everywhere - best PCI slot locations vary by Amiga model and may need cabling 4) Stand alone FPGA board with PCI slots + fully programmable and customizable + huge speedup is possible everywhere + PCI gives major speed increase and cheap commodity PC hardware + socket or surface mount Buster doesn't matter + standard power supplies and cases could be used + everything fits and a small Amiga is possible + could be used to simulate other retro hardware - much more complexity and added cost everywhere - some compatibility would likely be traded for cheaper production cost PCIe (and SATA as they both need FPGA high speed serial transceivers) could be added in place of PCI for additional cost. PCI still gives the cheapest hardware and some Amiga drivers already exist while providing adequate speed (no more busboard bottleneck) for the CPU power. IMO, idea #3 and #4 above make the most sense. Idea #3/#4 could be a 2 piece design with the accelerator board fitting into old big box Amigas and mating to a new I/O board (which could fit in Amiga 1200s for example). In any case, I hope there would be some cooperation for the 3rd generation of Amiga FPGA hardware (the FPGA Arcade and Mist are 2nd gen). Getting C= legends involved is brilliant both for their innovation and marketing inspiration. Bil Herd has also shown interest in doing some retro Amiga hardware (not so much an Amiga guy historically but very talented). There is much young FPGA talent around also. There is also more money available than what people would be willing to spend on new hardware if a well planned project was created. I know some people who could be valuable in planning, hardware creation and financing so contact me for further discussion if you and Dave are serious about doing an advanced retro Amiga project. |
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05 August 2015, 09:32 | #14 |
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My eyes started glazing over when I read PCI slots.. How about just making a bugfixed buster that runs Zorro3 as fast as it can be run?
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05 August 2015, 09:41 | #15 |
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Pretty sure Zorro III already runs "as fast as it can" with a Buster 11. They can't run faster cycles and work with existing Zorro III cards
They are talking about Zorro II speed improvements, bug fixes and arbitration improvements. |
05 August 2015, 11:50 | #16 |
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Who is going to design any hypothetical cards that benefit from faster bus driver? ;-)
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05 August 2015, 17:42 | #17 | |
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A Buster card is probably not as easy and simple as many people think. You need the FPGA, voltage regulator (FPGAs run at <5V), flash memory to load the FPGA code (FPGAs turn on with no code loaded) and a port to update the FPGA code for bug fixes and enhancements. Then you have to figure out how to make it work reliably with socket and surface mount Busters. I would expect the price to be not more than 50% over a partially bug fixed Buster 11 to sell well. If Dave wants to do this project for fun and can work some miracles then maybe he could come close to this target. IMO, his name and expertise would be wasted on a project with a very small benefit to less than half of existing Amiga users (only big box Amiga users). Keeping the classic Amiga alive requires more modernization. Adding PCI is probably one the cheapest ways to enhance existing classic Amigas. Some kind of PCIe+SATA stand alone board might appeal to people outside the Amiga community (bringing in new Amiga users) if the price was low enough. Besides faster I/O and custom chipset (with bug fixes), a faster 68k CPU is also needed to improve and modernize the Amiga experience. I own a CSMK3 68060@75MHz with Mediator providing Voodoo 4+ethernet+USB. This hardware setup makes a great semi-modern Amiga but new software is lacking because there isn't enough of this hardware. I can see the potential as more speed, less bottlenecks and better integration of hardware is possible with today's technology. A Buster only upgrade doesn't do much to help, IMO. |
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05 August 2015, 18:32 | #18 | |
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The newer Xilinx parts will allow configuration from the design. (i.e. you could in theory change the flash contents from the Amiga) Way off topic but no-one is ever going to use a Classic Amiga as their main computer no matter what modernisation you add. |
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05 August 2015, 18:57 | #19 |
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People need to lay off the fan fiction with Amiga.
How is the "classic Amiga" an "Amiga" if you add a lot of shit that isn't "Amiga"? None of the proponents of "modern Amiga" are ABLE to define what the fuck Amiga is or would be today. Seems to me like "Amiga" would just be a generic computer platform running a variety of unsupported OSes, based on already obsolete technology needed to keep compatibility with said archaic operating systems. Now, CLASSIC AMIGA, that we can define very easily. It would be the classic computers, 500s,600s,1200s,300s,400s, etc., running on the 68k architecture. Keeping THAT alive means a lot of research and development into hardware that expands its capabilities somehow but keeps as near as 100% compatibility as possible with legacy applications. This research is usually not affordable because there just ISN'T a user base big and strong enough to make things happen (unlike the C64 one). Why would any of the proposed expansions, be it SATA or PCI or whatever, bring ANYONE to the platform, if you have absolutely fuck all to use the computer with that you can't ALREADY DO with myriad of other platforms available in the market more easily and even cheaper?? I totally can understand people wanting to get into an Amiga platform and push it to the limit and use it today as their main platform, people with tinkering/hacker attitude, however painful that sounds to me, but you aren't going to miraculously attract anyone to an obsolete platform that doesn't have much going on for it and a platform in which you have to pay through the nose for everything, starting with the obsolete computer to base it all on, and adding up the obsolete and modern peripherals you might need to put it on par with everyday computing technology of the year TWO THOUSAND AND FOUR. Last edited by Amiga1992; 05 August 2015 at 19:05. |
06 August 2015, 00:57 | #20 | ||||||
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