Best Old-Skool RTS?

23 June 2001, 19:29

Everyone bleats on about C+C as if it was the first game ever to feature strategic things being performed in real time, but that's blatantly rubbish. Just think of Powermonger, Populous, Supremacy, Mega-lo-mania... They were the daddies. You can compare Populous II with Black and White, its successor a decade later, and I still reckon that Populous has the edge.

That's my personal favourite. If you've got a minute, maybe you could post a reply talking about yours

Amiga1992 · 23 June 2001, 21:08

I think Populous and the others are in another league called 'God sims', which I enjoy a damn sight more than C&C (I always hated that game, stupidly boring). Though Syndicate was a crossbreed.. Hmm...

From them all, my faves are Populous, MegaloMania and the aforentioned Syndicate. I heard Dune 2 is good, but I never played it.

23 June 2001, 21:16

There was an interesting argument recently over whether Black And White qualified as a real time strategy, a God game or an RPG. In the end, they decided (predictably) that it had elements of all of them. I suppose this is what makes a great game - the ability to step over genres.

The early Amiga RTS games did this by default - since they were treading new ground, there was no genre stereotype to avoid. This is why C+C, to me, lacks the magic. It may have been a well-executed idea, but it was merely improving on ideas that had already been covered in Dune, and to some extent Populous.

I suppose God games could be counted as a division of RTS - mana instead of money, Deity rather than General, but the great ones defy classification anyway.

Dune II was top, btw

Shatterhand · 23 June 2001, 21:58

I think C&C is rather boring, with boring missions.. it seems like today RTS are classified by "The one with most different units is the best one" ...

Dune 2 is classic, it doesn't has lots of different units, but the missions are solid, and the atmosphere is just GREAT.

And you guys forgot to tell about my 2 favourites games of the genre.. K240 and The Settlers

23 June 2001, 23:20

C&C was excellent when it came out, but like everything else, they've gone overboard. Mind control dolphins? Give it a rest.

I hated populus on the amiga, but syndicate and megalomania are just the dogs bollocks for me. Still play them now and never tire of the sound effects of megalomania.

MethodGit · 23 June 2001, 23:57

I wonder why you didn't like Populous? What about its sequel?

24 June 2001, 00:40

Powermonger? That was worse!

I dunno why I didn't like them. Just one of those things I guess.

Amiga1992 · 24 June 2001, 01:30

Keph, Powermonger is not Populous' sequel, Populous 2 is

'IT'S ALL OVER!' haha i love the MegaLoMania samples too...

with all this talk about Black&White I dug up a bit of info. It seems really interesting, and for a pc game to make me interested, it must be at least good. I'll try to check it out.

'The design is ready'

Burge · 24 June 2001, 07:14

Mega Lo Mania was awesome, and also damn hard. I seem to making this comment quite a lot these days.

I also spent hours on Dune 2 and Red Alert and Command and Conquer and Starcraft and Total Annihiliation. Call me an RTS junkie. But now days, I just don't seem to have the will to play an RTS game for hours on end. Only games I will play at length are Adventure games and Sport games.

24 June 2001, 12:53

If you're thinking about buying B+W, make sure that you have a very good system, and also be prepared for a lot of bugs - they're working on a patch which should resolve many of them, but the current loading times make Fellow look good. :eek

I bought the game and played it solidly for two weeks, then suddenly started hating it and haven't played it since. It's not that the game can't create atmosphere - it does, by the bucketload. It's just that under the skin, Black and White is essentially an old skool God game (and not a hugely deep one) with the addition of trainable creatures.

The A.I. of the creatures is what raises the game above the crap floating round the PC scene right now. But once you've trained your monkey to fertilise the fields with his own poo (or fling it at villagers, depending on how much of a nasty git you are) you'll have turned off your PXII 2GIG Ninja Bastard and sought relief from the mellow 256 colour glow of Populous II.

I did, anyway.

24 June 2001, 14:11

Only thing I like about B&W was throwing the villagers around the hills.

Burge · 25 June 2001, 14:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Cam
I bought the game and played it solidly for two weeks, then suddenly started hating it and haven't played it since. It's not that the game can't create atmosphere - it does, by the bucketload. It's just that under the skin, Black and White is essentially an old skool God game (and not a hugely deep one) with the addition of trainable creatures.

I too was lured by the hype. Fun for a while, then forever on the pile. Anyone tried multiplayer? What's it like?

Amiga1992 · 25 June 2001, 17:59

Hmm Ill consider it. It soudned as damn simple but deep in gameplay. If it's not as deep as Populous, I rather avoid it. I dont buy for eyecandy (and my machine sucks anyway

), I buy for gameplay.

Another one I liked for the miggy was Genesia. But I never got to lpay it a lot, since teh crack I had was incomplete. It avoided the code chek at start, but when you had to enter the barracks (a must to play), it asked for protection again, and that was not cracked. I cant remember which smartarses 'cracked' it

25 June 2001, 21:11

Don't get me wrong, B+W has a lot going for it - splendid AI, lovely music and genuine moral freedom. Unfortunately, it was set on an impossible pedestal by Lionhead, many of whose claims about the game turned out to be false.

At one point, it was claimed that the creatures understood causality to the extent that they would heat a rock before throwing it at an enemy. To some extent this is true - you can train it to do just about anything by slapping or stroking it immediately after it has performed an action - but there is very little initiative on the part of the creature. It will experiment with basic actions, but it won't be creative in any complex way without rigorous training from you.

This wouldn't matter if it wasn't for Lionhead's boasts. It's a shame that they feel they had to lie about a perfectly decent game in order to perpetuate the hype which they created! Oh, for the days when games weren't ruled by big business.......

Amiga1992 · 26 June 2001, 02:30

Ahhh, good ole Sony/MS-type hype eh? I hate when that happens, because it ruins the final product.

I never heard the hype about this game, so perhaps I can judge it properly

Burge · 26 June 2001, 06:57

You never heard of the hype for Black and White? You must have had fingers in your ears and your hands over your eyes for the past 3 years!

Either that or abime.net is the only games site you read.

Amiga1992 · 26 June 2001, 17:23

Nope, I don't give a rat's ass about PC 'gaming', period

That's why I never heard about it, or any other piece of crap the PC gets

HOwever I do hear about the garbage that gets ported from the PC to the meega... Sad indeed, but why do they hype about it? pfff.

26 June 2001, 21:11

Atari 2600 games had the best AI, anyway.

Amiga1992 · 26 June 2001, 22:23

AI is a hard thing to code... Andrew Braybrook got a pretty nifty AI routine going on in Uridium 2. God, I love that game to bits.

Twistin'Ghost · 01 July 2001, 12:45

Oh, Akira! I am becoming more and more convinced that you and I are the only two people left that couldn't care less about PC games. I get attacked for that a lot, or called an extremist or zealot (anti-PC). The bottom line is that the PC is just a piss-poor excuse for a game machine. I don't care how much horsepower is under the hook, I just cannot see any appeal in PC games whatsoever.

And I won't even get on one of my 3D rants...

23 June 2001, 19:29	#1
Cam Posts: n/a	Best Old-Skool RTS? Everyone bleats on about C+C as if it was the first game ever to feature strategic things being performed in real time, but that's blatantly rubbish. Just think of Powermonger, Populous, Supremacy, Mega-lo-mania... They were the daddies. You can compare Populous II with Black and White, its successor a decade later, and I still reckon that Populous has the edge. That's my personal favourite. If you've got a minute, maybe you could post a reply talking about yours

23 June 2001, 21:16	#3
Cam Posts: n/a	Musings There was an interesting argument recently over whether Black And White qualified as a real time strategy, a God game or an RPG. In the end, they decided (predictably) that it had elements of all of them. I suppose this is what makes a great game - the ability to step over genres. The early Amiga RTS games did this by default - since they were treading new ground, there was no genre stereotype to avoid. This is why C+C, to me, lacks the magic. It may have been a well-executed idea, but it was merely improving on ideas that had already been covered in Dune, and to some extent Populous. I suppose God games could be counted as a division of RTS - mana instead of money, Deity rather than General, but the great ones defy classification anyway. Dune II was top, btw

24 June 2001, 12:53	#10
Cam Posts: n/a	@Akira If you're thinking about buying B+W, make sure that you have a very good system, and also be prepared for a lot of bugs - they're working on a patch which should resolve many of them, but the current loading times make Fellow look good. :eek I bought the game and played it solidly for two weeks, then suddenly started hating it and haven't played it since. It's not that the game can't create atmosphere - it does, by the bucketload. It's just that under the skin, Black and White is essentially an old skool God game (and not a hugely deep one) with the addition of trainable creatures. The A.I. of the creatures is what raises the game above the crap floating round the PC scene right now. But once you've trained your monkey to fertilise the fields with his own poo (or fling it at villagers, depending on how much of a nasty git you are) you'll have turned off your PXII 2GIG Ninja Bastard and sought relief from the mellow 256 colour glow of Populous II. I did, anyway.

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23 June 2001, 21:08	#2
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	I think Populous and the others are in another league called 'God sims', which I enjoy a damn sight more than C&C (I always hated that game, stupidly boring). Though Syndicate was a crossbreed.. Hmm... From them all, my faves are Populous, MegaloMania and the aforentioned Syndicate. I heard Dune 2 is good, but I never played it.

23 June 2001, 21:58	#4
Shatterhand Warhasneverbeensomuchfun Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil Age: 41 Posts: 3,450	I think C&C is rather boring, with boring missions.. it seems like today RTS are classified by "The one with most different units is the best one" ... Dune 2 is classic, it doesn't has lots of different units, but the missions are solid, and the atmosphere is just GREAT. And you guys forgot to tell about my 2 favourites games of the genre.. K240 and The Settlers

23 June 2001, 23:20	#5
Khephren Posts: n/a	C&C was excellent when it came out, but like everything else, they've gone overboard. Mind control dolphins? Give it a rest. I hated populus on the amiga, but syndicate and megalomania are just the dogs bollocks for me. Still play them now and never tire of the sound effects of megalomania.

23 June 2001, 23:57	#6
MethodGit Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Streets Age: 39 Posts: 2,731	I wonder why you didn't like Populous? What about its sequel?

24 June 2001, 00:40	#7
Khephren Posts: n/a	Powermonger? That was worse! I dunno why I didn't like them. Just one of those things I guess.

24 June 2001, 01:30	#8
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	Keph, Powermonger is not Populous' sequel, Populous 2 is 'IT'S ALL OVER!' haha i love the MegaLoMania samples too... with all this talk about Black&White I dug up a bit of info. It seems really interesting, and for a pc game to make me interested, it must be at least good. I'll try to check it out. 'The design is ready'

24 June 2001, 07:14	#9
Burge Get ready, Agent Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Perth / Australia Age: 42 Posts: 148	Mega Lo Mania was awesome, and also damn hard. I seem to making this comment quite a lot these days. I also spent hours on Dune 2 and Red Alert and Command and Conquer and Starcraft and Total Annihiliation. Call me an RTS junkie. But now days, I just don't seem to have the will to play an RTS game for hours on end. Only games I will play at length are Adventure games and Sport games.

24 June 2001, 14:11	#11
Khephren Posts: n/a	Only thing I like about B&W was throwing the villagers around the hills.

25 June 2001, 17:59	#13
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	Hmm Ill consider it. It soudned as damn simple but deep in gameplay. If it's not as deep as Populous, I rather avoid it. I dont buy for eyecandy (and my machine sucks anyway ), I buy for gameplay. Another one I liked for the miggy was Genesia. But I never got to lpay it a lot, since teh crack I had was incomplete. It avoided the code chek at start, but when you had to enter the barracks (a must to play), it asked for protection again, and that was not cracked. I cant remember which smartarses 'cracked' it

25 June 2001, 21:11	#14
Cam Posts: n/a	Don't get me wrong, B+W has a lot going for it - splendid AI, lovely music and genuine moral freedom. Unfortunately, it was set on an impossible pedestal by Lionhead, many of whose claims about the game turned out to be false. At one point, it was claimed that the creatures understood causality to the extent that they would heat a rock before throwing it at an enemy. To some extent this is true - you can train it to do just about anything by slapping or stroking it immediately after it has performed an action - but there is very little initiative on the part of the creature. It will experiment with basic actions, but it won't be creative in any complex way without rigorous training from you. This wouldn't matter if it wasn't for Lionhead's boasts. It's a shame that they feel they had to lie about a perfectly decent game in order to perpetuate the hype which they created! Oh, for the days when games weren't ruled by big business.......

26 June 2001, 02:30	#15
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	Ahhh, good ole Sony/MS-type hype eh? I hate when that happens, because it ruins the final product. I never heard the hype about this game, so perhaps I can judge it properly

26 June 2001, 06:57	#16
Burge Get ready, Agent Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Perth / Australia Age: 42 Posts: 148	You never heard of the hype for Black and White? You must have had fingers in your ears and your hands over your eyes for the past 3 years! Either that or abime.net is the only games site you read.

26 June 2001, 17:23	#17
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	Nope, I don't give a rat's ass about PC 'gaming', period That's why I never heard about it, or any other piece of crap the PC gets HOwever I do hear about the garbage that gets ported from the PC to the meega... Sad indeed, but why do they hype about it? pfff.

26 June 2001, 21:11	#18
Cam Posts: n/a	Atari 2600 games had the best AI, anyway.

26 June 2001, 22:23	#19
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	AI is a hard thing to code... Andrew Braybrook got a pretty nifty AI routine going on in Uridium 2. God, I love that game to bits.

01 July 2001, 12:45	#20
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	Oh, Akira! I am becoming more and more convinced that you and I are the only two people left that couldn't care less about PC games. I get attacked for that a lot, or called an extremist or zealot (anti-PC). The bottom line is that the PC is just a piss-poor excuse for a game machine. I don't care how much horsepower is under the hook, I just cannot see any appeal in PC games whatsoever. And I won't even get on one of my 3D rants...

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