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Old 18 May 2013, 14:22   #1
Leandro Jardim
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CRT Tv Output

I hooked a NTSC/PAL CRT TV to the S-Video Out of my video card to be able to play James Pond 2 AGA on it. Well, it works, albeit with a few glitches. I have to switch the TV to NTSC and the card to M/NTSC (Japan) (its a Samsung) because my TV doesnt support the PAL 60 mode required by the ATI 4550 cards. But the worst is that I dont get smooth scrolling because the display is at 30 Hz (NTSC) always, even when I enable my "monochrome" PAL.

Is there a hardware factor that limits the display to 30 Hz or I could tweak it to display frames at 25 Hz (PAL), maybe by a registry change or with a Windows utility?

Last edited by Leandro Jardim; 18 May 2013 at 15:28.
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Old 18 May 2013, 14:50   #2
Toni Wilen
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It may work if you select full screen interlaced PC resolution. ("i" in WinUAE refresh rate list, you may need to create custom resolution)

But it is also possible "progressive" PAL or NTSC isn't supported by TV out and you only see every other field.
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Old 20 May 2013, 12:54   #3
Dr.Venom
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Hi Leandro,

You've just put your first step on the stairway to emulation heaven... I say keep walking

Does your CRT TV have a SCART input? If yes, then with some effort you'll be able to enjoy the Amiga in all of its original CRT display glory.

Installation steps:
  1. Get this VGA to SCART cable (or you can build one yourself, not recommended for beginners as things can easily go wrong).
  2. install 15Khz screenmodes through Sailorsat's soft15khz tool
Do note that the above is considered a HACK, so be prepared for difficulties on the road to nirvana.....


Additional notes on installation:


Note 1: on Windows Vista or 7 you need to start it *with* administrator rights (because the tool needs to access your registry to install the video modes).
Note 2: Installing 15Khz CRT modes currently only works with older video cards, e.g. for ATI/AMD on Radeon HD 48xx or older. Check for card compatibility here.


Bonus material

Once you have become a master of the above, you can go one step further and create true emulation heaven for WinUAE.

Save the next two lines in a "usermodes.txt" file. Place this in the same folder as Soft15khz.exe and choose "install user" (again don't forget to run soft15khz.exe with administrator rights when you're on Windows Vista or 7).

Code:
modeline "744x287_50" 13.8 744 772 840 880 287 290 293 313 -HSync -VSync
modeline "744x575_25" 13.8 744 772 840 880 575 582 588 625 interlace -HSync -VSync
and copy the following two lines manually to your winuae configuration file* (you can place them below the "chipset=" line):

Code:
displaydata=25.000000,t=lace,pal,lace,gfx_width_fullscreen=744,gfx_height_fullscreen=575,gfx_linemode=double,gfx_refreshrate=25,gfx_interlace=true
displaydata=50.000000,t=lof,pal,nlace,gfx_width_fullscreen=744,gfx_height_fullscreen=287,gfx_linemode=none,gfx_refreshrate=50,gfx_interlace=false
Now WinUAE will also switch between the CRT 15Khz progressive -and- interlace screenmodes on the PC side, at the same time when the (emulated) Amiga does.

(* Thanks to Toni for implementing this feature )

Note that these two screenmodes are considered the progressive and interlaced "high-res" Amiga modes. They conveniently also capture the "low-res" Amiga modes, since WinUAE will double the horizontal resolution for those when you leave the "Resolution:" display settings at "Highres (normal)". Which effectively delivers the same result on your CRT, as if it's displaying the low-res screenmodes with the comparable lower pixelclock. So there's no need to install the additional low-res screenmodes with soft15khz.

Now... persevere and... as said, be prepared for emulation heaven.

Last but not least:

GOOD LUCK!


P.S. People have their own preferences when it comes to using LCD or CRT for oldskool computing, but in case your interested in getting (back) into CRT, the following youtube makes a nice comparison between the two: [ Show youtube player ]
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Old 22 May 2013, 21:59   #4
Leandro Jardim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Venom View Post
Hi Leandro,

You've just put your first step on the stairway to emulation heaven... I say keep walking

Does your CRT TV have a SCART input? If yes, then with some effort you'll be able to enjoy the Amiga in all of its original CRT display glory.

Installation steps:
  1. Get this VGA to SCART cable (or you can build one yourself, not recommended for beginners as things can easily go wrong).
  2. install 15Khz screenmodes through Sailorsat's soft15khz tool
Do note that the above is considered a HACK, so be prepared for difficulties on the road to nirvana.....


Additional notes on installation:


Note 1: on Windows Vista or 7 you need to start it *with* administrator rights (because the tool needs to access your registry to install the video modes).
Note 2: Installing 15Khz CRT modes currently only works with older video cards, e.g. for ATI/AMD on Radeon HD 48xx or older. Check for card compatibility here.


Bonus material

Once you have become a master of the above, you can go one step further and create true emulation heaven for WinUAE.

Save the next two lines in a "usermodes.txt" file. Place this in the same folder as Soft15khz.exe and choose "install user" (again don't forget to run soft15khz.exe with administrator rights when you're on Windows Vista or 7).

Code:
modeline "744x287_50" 13.8 744 772 840 880 287 290 293 313 -HSync -VSync
modeline "744x575_25" 13.8 744 772 840 880 575 582 588 625 interlace -HSync -VSync
and copy the following two lines manually to your winuae configuration file* (you can place them below the "chipset=" line):

Code:
displaydata=25.000000,t=lace,pal,lace,gfx_width_fullscreen=744,gfx_height_fullscreen=575,gfx_linemode=double,gfx_refreshrate=25,gfx_interlace=true
displaydata=50.000000,t=lof,pal,nlace,gfx_width_fullscreen=744,gfx_height_fullscreen=287,gfx_linemode=none,gfx_refreshrate=50,gfx_interlace=false
Now WinUAE will also switch between the CRT 15Khz progressive -and- interlace screenmodes on the PC side, at the same time when the (emulated) Amiga does.

(* Thanks to Toni for implementing this feature )

Note that these two screenmodes are considered the progressive and interlaced "high-res" Amiga modes. They conveniently also capture the "low-res" Amiga modes, since WinUAE will double the horizontal resolution for those when you leave the "Resolution:" display settings at "Highres (normal)". Which effectively delivers the same result on your CRT, as if it's displaying the low-res screenmodes with the comparable lower pixelclock. So there's no need to install the additional low-res screenmodes with soft15khz.

Now... persevere and... as said, be prepared for emulation heaven.

Last but not least:

GOOD LUCK!


P.S. People have their own preferences when it comes to using LCD or CRT for oldskool computing, but in case your interested in getting (back) into CRT, the following youtube makes a nice comparison between the two: [ Show youtube player ]
Hi Dr. Venom,

Super interesting. I am attempted to try this, but I feel its very difficult for a beginner that never did any sort of hacks.

Is there a way to use the builtin Radeon SVHS video output instead to buy a VGA to SCART cable?

Could be possible to to fry my video card or my CRT Tv by doing this? I would not like this to happen...
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Old 23 May 2013, 00:44   #5
Dr.Venom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro Jardim View Post
Super interesting. I am attempted to try this, but I feel its very difficult for a beginner that never did any sort of hacks.
As with many things in life, you need to start somewhere

Quote:
Is there a way to use the builtin Radeon SVHS video output instead to buy a VGA to SCART cable?
No, this needs the VGA RGB signal to work. S-Video is quite different.

Quote:
Could be possible to to fry my video card or my CRT Tv by doing this? I would not like this to happen...
Taken from the FAQ:
Quote:
  • Any dangers for my adapter or my screen?
    For you adapter there no dangers, hence only the driver is programmed.

    For your screen however, theres a slight risk of damage, hence the adapters output standard 31KHz VGA signals until windows boots up.
    There are nice security gadgets like the Ultimarc J-PAC, that filter out bad signals.
  • What to do in the worst case?
    Well, start up Windows (with a VGA screen) in safe-mode and either try to uninstall the project (it creates a backup on install), or uninstall the whole video driver.
I guess a "must read" when you're a beginner at this is the "International Overview": http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showt...ional-Overview

and certainly also the main forum: http://community.arcadeinfo.de/forum...-15KHz-english

It has a large number of posts from people who have tried it, and gives a good sense of the things you may run into. This will also be the better place to turn to when you have questions or run into issues.
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Old 23 May 2013, 01:02   #6
demolition
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If used as the secondary video adapter, I think this could eliminate any 'bad' signals from the card as the output would be off until Windows initialized it.
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Old 24 May 2013, 01:08   #7
Dr.Venom
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Yes that works pretty nicely. Actually it's the configuration I'm using myself .

If you only have one card then you can of course always turn off your CRT TV/Monitor until windows has booted, just if you want to be on the safe side. Many cards have at least two outputs (such as one VGA and one DVI), so you could also have your CRT on the one and a LCD on the other port, so you'd still see what the boot sequence is doing..

And you could of course have WinUAE display RTG/Picasso workbench in high definition on your LCD and have it automatically switching to the CRT when loading a game or demo through WHDLoad. Just as a high-end real Amiga with a CRT attached to its native (OCS/ECS/AGA) video output and a LCD to its RTG/Picasso card would. Did I say something about Amiga emulation heaven? (Thanks Toni )
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Old 24 May 2013, 15:28   #8
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandro Jardim View Post
my TV doesnt support the PAL 60 mode required by the ATI 4550 cards
PAL 60? Did you really mean PAL 50?

I have used old ATI cards and haven't found any that could not provide PAL 50hz signals using SVGA out. I've run WinUAE using 720x576 50hz output with direct draw (auto stretch) and null filters on old ATI cards and it looked great. Tha ATI catalyst driver allowed selection of SVGA out then standard NTSC/PAL output modes (perhaps they refer to this mode as 576i now?).

What is the model number of your TV? is it NTSC only?

Last edited by gary; 24 May 2013 at 15:33.
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Old 24 May 2013, 15:54   #9
Leandro Jardim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
PAL 60? Did you really mean PAL 50?

I have used old ATI cards and haven't found any that could not provide PAL 50hz signals using SVGA out. I've run WinUAE using 720x576 50hz output with direct draw (auto stretch) and null filters on old ATI cards and it looked great. Tha ATI catalyst driver allowed selection of SVGA out then standard NTSC/PAL output modes (perhaps they refer to this mode as 576i now?).

What is the model number of your TV? is it NTSC only?
I am using the SVHS video output of my card together with an composite adaptor. Ah, and I checked that my Tv not have the SCART input it requires to use the SCART adaptor.

Seems that the PAL input of my CRT Tv (PAL-M is standard of Brazil) is a bit different from the output provided by my ATI card. I read about this thing (PAL 60) when looking for a solution for the issue and according to the text its about to some old PAL-M Tvs not supporting the color phase of other PAL signals. My ATI card supports PAL-M, but for some reason its incompatible with my TV. While I am not sure if its true, the PAL 60 suggestion seemed reasonable for me, and I chose this to explain the issue.

The screen gets black and white with some colors flashing over the screen. Even plain NTSC not works. As I said, I have to switch the card to M-NTSC Japan mode and even so, it takes a while to the Tv "reckon" the colors. I have the luck that with this card my Tv works this way. With a NVidia card that I had previously, I could only "play chess" with the screen (the most black and white colors I had ever seen). Pure delight.

About PAL 60:
http://kaioa.com/node/46.

Last edited by Leandro Jardim; 24 May 2013 at 18:31. Reason: Changed "analog" to composite. This is what I mean.
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