Topaz font and diskfont.library

[Photon]

I think you misunderstand me completely, Thomas.

The goal as I see it is for small or standalone programs to be distributed without being accompanied by a list of requirements beyond the hardware and OS, including library versions (and for installers, even the Installer version).

That is to say, a bootable product which contains all it needs to run correctly.

If files required by the OS to do simple things are not allowed to accompany the executable, no bootable product is possible at all. (This also includes bootable hardware products.)

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Then make it so that it does not overwrite anything. If it needs specific libraries, it is sufficient to place them into the same directory as the program itself and AmigaOs will pick them up from there. Ideally, there is no installation needed - just copy it wherever you want to have it, and it runs.

Yes, you can dispense with the installer script if you know what you're doing. This doesn't relate to OP's problem.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

It is 2023 now, and how many people *do not* have some form of permanent storage?

Many emulators make it too difficult for people coming back to the Amiga to create even a harddisk directory. No Amiga (edit: except A500, with ACA500Plus) has a way to solve the chicken-and-egg problem of getting files over to ready the Amiga to boot from persistent storage (e.g. partition a card and transfer disk images to floppies, which is the only way to install the OS). This is why the Goteks, and ready-made .HDF files and preinstalled CF cards.

Quite apart from that though, the Amiga needs a way to distribute bootable software products.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Wait, is the goal here to write some Apps for your smart phone or write a program for the Amiga? The Amiga is not a mobile phone, and if someone is sane or insane enough to install an emulator there, it is not the burden of the program author to enable installation there.

True, but many ARM emus are not in a shape to function with a persistent media Workbench installation, and it's quite difficult to tether it and transfer files. More recent mobile OS versions also don't allow a normal user to manage the file system - but you can load any disk image.

Mobile phones allows emulation to be - mobile. That's all. Maybe you don't see a benefit in that, but others might.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Dare to look? There is a utlitiliy called "Installer", which (gasp!) is used for installing software.

Yes, it comes in different versions and fails if you don't use the right one. This adds to requirements beyond what the software being installed needs.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Languages are neither os-friendly nor unfriendly. Programs are. I have no problem writing Os-friendly programs in assembly, and unfriendly programs in Basic.

Yes, but here the language and the author programs the Amiga in an OS-friendly way, and this is the problem. He just wants to print a text message, and the OS requires a font, and also a diskfont.library, even though he's specified topaz which is a ROM font. And he's not allowed to put diskfont.library aside his executable, even though it's required by and a vital part of the OS.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

The court would not care on a particular language. Just whether you distribute copyrighted material. Just don't. Deliver your software such that it can be installed on an already setup system, and you do not need to distribute such material. Problem solved.

Anything else but what? Dependencies from the Os does not make the Os "ransomware" - that's silly. There is no need to deliver Os components as part of your own product because your customer already has them available at his end. Just make the program run from an existing installation and you are good.

I beg your pardon, but I doubt that there was ever the right that you could take somebody else's work without permission and redistribute it. As a program author, package properly. "Here is my code, put it into a drawer of the workbench, click to run". That is the simplest thing to do. There is no need to distribute Os components along as the Os components are already present.

You don't sound like you beg my pardon. There's no reason to, though, I just analyze topics. I enjoy reasoning.

Plenty of software for PC (that use an installer) come bundled with specific versions of DLLs, and some include entire outdated frameworks. While this causes bloat, it also ensures that the software doesn't break if newer versions of components have been installed since.

This relates to Amiga, look no further than req/tools.library.

It relates to this thread, because by not allowing redistributing OS components, all bootable media is disallowed. Meanwhile, there are plenty of software products that must be booted separate from a working OS installation on permanent media: All software for Amiga computer lacking such, software that must fit in the memory of the system ("buy more RAM" is still invalid), and software that tests the hardware or analyzes or enhances such a permanent installation.

These examples can't function without redistributed components because the OS itself requires the components, either on a redistributed OS installation disk set, or once copied from such disks to permanent storage after successful installation.

This obviously makes the OS ransomware, because no bootable product can ever be written for the OS other than OS installation disks. This is unacceptable on any platform, and many courts have dealt with this issue. Current rights owners are not in the right here.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Photon

That is to say, a bootable product which contains all it needs to run correctly.

Bootable products are an outdated concept - create "installable products". A simple drawer that contains everything the software needs is good enough in most cases.

Originally Posted by Photon

If files required by the OS to do simple things are not allowed to accompany the executable, no bootable product is possible at all. (This also includes bootable hardware products.)

Yes, and correctly so. The concept makes no sense anymore. It died with the arrival of large storage, harddisks, SSDs or flash media.

Originally Posted by Photon

Yes, you can dispense with the installer script if you know what you're doing. This doesn't relate to OP's problem.

Of course it does. Deliver an installer script, and the product will run from the Os where all libraries are present.

Originally Posted by Photon

Many emulators make it too difficult for people coming back to the Amiga to create even a harddisk directory.

The "emulator" will certainly emulate a harddisk, so it's even easier.

Originally Posted by Photon

Quite apart from that though, the Amiga needs a way to distribute bootable software products.

No. It needs a way to distribute products, and self-booting is not the way to go. What was the last time you had a "bootable product" for the PC?

Originally Posted by Photon

True, but many ARM emus are not in a shape to function with a persistent media Workbench installation,

Err, what? If the workbench does not run (why does it not?) why would I care using them in first place?

Originally Posted by Photon

Yes, it comes in different versions and fails if you don't use the right one. This adds to requirements beyond what the software being installed needs.

Why so? Don't use the features the later versions offer and you are fine. This is only a matter of testing the installer. If you need an installer in first place.

Originally Posted by Photon

Yes, but here the language and the author programs the Amiga in an OS-friendly way, and this is the problem. He just wants to print a text message, and the OS requires a font, and also a diskfont.library, even though he's specified topaz which is a ROM font.

You don't need diskfont to open topaz. graphics OpenFont() is good enough for that. So there is no problem to begin with. Except that it would be just easier to distribute the program as a directory of files, "place wherever you find appropriate" and run it from the workbench.

Originally Posted by Photon

And he's not allowed to put diskfont.library aside his executable, even though it's required by and a vital part of the OS.

First, no, it is not required to use diskfont, and second, if you run the product from the workbench, there will be diskfont.

Originally Posted by Photon

You don't sound like you beg my pardon. There's no reason to, though, I just analyze topics. I enjoy reasoning.

Some of your arguments, however, are not reasonable at all. This is not related in any way with the language. It is related to an outdated and unreasonable way how to distribute software. Reconsider your way of distribution to one that is more up to date, and the problem is solved.

Originally Posted by Photon

Plenty of software for PC (that use an installer) come bundled with specific versions of DLLs, and some include entire outdated frameworks. While this causes bloat, it also ensures that the software doesn't break if newer versions of components have been installed since.

And that software is self-booting? Hardly so. The situation is different - this software comes with DLLs that are *not* part of the operating system. But this is not the case. We are talking about "DLLs" that *are* part of the opereating system and that for that reason do not require installation.

Originally Posted by Photon

This relates to Amiga, look no further than req/tools.library.

Reqtools is not part of AmigaOs, and other restrictions may or may not arise for redistributing it. Reqtools is neither necessary to run software. asl can provide the same services, and is part of the Os.

Originally Posted by Photon

It relates to this thread, because by not allowing redistributing OS components, all bootable media is disallowed.

Well observed, and correctly so. Bootable media are not a proper tool to distribute software. Not any more nowadays.

Originally Posted by Photon

Meanwhile, there are plenty of software products that must be booted separate from a working OS installation on permanent media: All software for Amiga computer lacking such, software that must fit in the memory of the system ("buy more RAM" is still invalid), and software that tests the hardware or analyzes or enhances such a permanent installation.

Err, that sounds like a minority of software, actually. First, you talk about "emulation", so why is RAM usage there an issue? Second, it's 2023, so why is RAM usage an issue? Third, even if you insist of system or hardware analyzers, why do they need Os compnents if they attempt to test these components? Your arguments should be at least coherent, but they are not.

Originally Posted by Photon

This obviously makes the OS ransomware, because no bootable product can ever be written for the OS other than OS installation disks.

It makes the Os what it ever was: A commercial product. If that does not fit into your strategy, your strategy has to change.

Originally Posted by Photon

This is unacceptable on any platform, and many courts have dealt with this issue. Current rights owners are not in the right here.

It is unacceptable to have self-booting media in the PC market since at least 50 years or so, and for the Amiga probably unnecessary since at least 30 years or so. Since when could you redistribute parts of Windows or MacOs to make a product self-booting? This concept does not even exist there... It is a "non-problem" you are somehow trying to make a problem.

[redblade]

I think Photo provided Asm source code that included the font binary into the program and then modified the structures so that you didn't have to use diskfont.library.

I remember trying it with helvetica.font and it worked well

If you can convert that program to blitzbasic 2 then that should take care of the problem but I don't know how easy it is to do with BlitzBasic 2.

[aros-sg]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

It is unacceptable to have self-booting media in the PC market since at least 50 years or so.

There's lot of bootable software: partition tools, diagnostic tools, repair tools, anti virus software, live OSes.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by aros-sg

There's lot of bootable software: partition tools, diagnostic tools, repair tools, anti virus software, live OSes.

Which - if you are talking about PC software - all does *not* depend on the native operating system there. And "lots" is probably not quite right. *Some*. If you compare that to the Amiga: Why would you need diskfont (or other non-ROM based code) for such software?

[aros-sg]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Which - if you are talking about PC software - all does *not* depend on the native operating system there

On PC in context of bootable/self-booting software I would say that the "native operating system" of the machine is the BIOS (and some software will depend on that), not the other OS (or multiple OSes) found on the machine's external disks.

[Daedalus]

There are two pretty extreme approaches being taken here.

As I've already pointed out, portions of the OS are commercial and are licencable, because otherwise where do you draw the line? All releases of the OS after 3.1 can involve loading modules from disk. If you need to include some OS3.2 parts for your program to work when self-booting, how much of 3.2 can you include before it's simply a pirate copy of 3.2?

Yes, a version of the OS has already been bought if the user has an Amiga, but which version? If you have an A1200, did that automatically come with a licence for Workbench 1.3?


And as for why diskfont.library or self-booting would ever be needed, comparing to the relatively modern PC world isn't really a good approach here. Unlike the PC world, there are plenty of users out there who still have 1MB A500s with no hard drives. If you're lucky a Gotek might be included, but even that's not guaranteed. And some people *like* the nostalgia of a system like that and don't want to use it a different way. Yes, of course it's easy to say a hard drive is required, but if your software is a simple game that would otherwise work on such a machine, then it's a shame to exclude what is effectively the target machine. In my case, I got a lot of feedback from people commenting on being unable to boot from the game disk. It was possible to boot Workbench first, then run it from the game disk, and it was possible to simply drag the game to a hard drive, but at that point a 1MB A500 didn't have enough free RAM. So I included instructions on the disk to copy over a couple of files from Workbench that would make the game disk bootable.

Regarding the diskfont.library issue specifically, this is a Blitz Basic problem (and this discussion is in a Blitz Basic board). Being Basic, the standard method of printing text to the console or to a bitmap isn't to use OpenFont(), but to use the Basic font-rendering commands like Print and Format. And if you use any of the built-in font rendering commands (regardless of whether you're opening a disk-based font or not), Blitz will make the executable automatically open diskfont.library, and it will fail to work if the library isn't present. This is regardless of whether it's a system-friendly application or a game that bangs the hardware directly, and isn't something the developer can avoid except by not using any commands from the provided font-rendering library at all (including the humble Print and Str$() commands).

The latest version of AmiBlitz (3.9.9) has a workaround to remove the diskfont.library requirement, but that version has its own issues with stability, and of course this doesn't solve the problem for anyone using an earlier version, anyone using Blitz 2.1, or any pre-existing executables.

[Photon]

OK, let's clean the thread. OP has multiple answers now.

Specifically, PC etc. discussion ends here. AmigaOS is not designed like other OSes, and this is highly relevant to the topic. Any other OS is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

If you have an A1200, did that automatically come with a licence for Workbench 1.3?

This is a programming topic. The design of AmigaOS requires files that are part of the OS, such as files in C:, DEVS:, S:, and LIBS: to perform even the most basic commandline operations and functions related to hardware.

When distributing OS-friendly software, these files must be redistributed because the OS is designed so.

Anything else will be viewed as providing an OS in such a way as to prevent software vendors from distributing software for that OS, and this violates competition laws in Europe and Antitrust law in USA. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not providing legal advice.

This hereby ends licensing discussions for programming topics.

Programming solutions include:

1. Opening a screen, specifying "topaz.font" as its font definition. (80 or 60 columns versions of topaz only)
2. Patching older versions of Blitz Basic to not open diskfont.library, by search/replacing the binary for the library name and substitute another, e.g. graphics.library. (80 or 60 columns versions of topaz only)
3. Reinventing the better wheel by writing a print function. The program can still be OS-friendly and use ROM Kernel libraries.

[paraj]

So BlitzBasic opens diskfont.library without really needing it? Isn't there option 4 to create a stub replacement that does just enough to keep BB happy?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the topic. Could someone make a very simple disk that shows the issue just printing "Hello world" or whatever (or share another freely distributable example)? I.e. a disk that would work if only diskfont.library was available.

[idrougge]

This is silly. Every Amiga user already has a licence to use the OS because it is built-in on ROM and every Amiga was delivered with Workbench on disk, so there is no piracy involved if he has an extra copy of a command or library on another floppy. If someone wants to challenge this in court, go ahead.

[Honitos]

Originally Posted by paraj

So BlitzBasic opens diskfont.library without really needing it? Isn't there option 4 to create a stub replacement that does just enough to keep BB happy?.

I did that for AmiBlitz.
It does not open the diskfont.library anymore regardless of the requested font but only, if the font is different than Topaz.

The "fontlib" can be used with Blitz2 as well, just replace it there.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Bootable products are an outdated concept - create "installable products"

self-booting is not the way to go. What was the last time you had a "bootable product" for the PC?

This is incredibly narrow-minded.
There's clearly plenty of need, or want, for bootable software and, in the end, as it is a possibility, this is up to the author to decide whether or not it should be, and should not be subject to a ridiculous license fee from a parasitic company trying to cash on the distribution of a file that the recipient already has a license for (!??!?!)

Also a PC is not an Amiga and comparing the two is just ridiculous, there was never "bootable" PC software besides the OS, as that's just not how that system worked.

It's pretty wild, not to see a shameful cash-grab from a parasite, but seeing a developer defend such activities with some ridiculous postures. Talk about assisting the evil that oppresses you.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Amiga1992

This is incredibly narrow-minded.
There's clearly plenty of need, or want, for bootable software and, in the end, as it is a possibility, this is up to the author to decide whether or not it should be...

We have now the year 2024. New physical floppy disks are not even made anymore, and if you have an Amiga, you also have a harddisk or a CF adapter in it and start software by means of WHDLoad from the workbench - and you say that there is a "need" for self-booting? That is not "narrow minded" - what you say is just silly.

Originally Posted by Amiga1992

and should not be subject to a ridiculous license fee from a parasitic company trying to cash on the distribution of a file that the recipient already has a license for (!??!?!)

Right, and if the user has already a license for, and the file in his or hers posession, why do you need to redistribute again? Just install it to harddisk, use the existing file there, problem solved.



After all, that "company" (as little as I like them) has paid money for their "product" in one way or another.

Originally Posted by Amiga1992

Also a PC is not an Amiga and comparing the two is just ridiculous, there was never "bootable" PC software besides the OS, as that's just not how that system worked.

And that's neither how AmigaOs works. We do have the workbench, and most people will also run games from the workbench, just with another big workaround on top called WHDLoad. So some authors create "bootable software", just that users go and start that bootable software without booting it. In other words, you are creating an artificial problem by insisting on an outdated distribution method. Aminet comes with ".lha" archives to install on top of the workbench - that's not particularly modern, but more modern than what you suggest, and it has worked for years successfully.

Originally Posted by Amiga1992

It's pretty wild, not to see a shameful cash-grab from a parasite, but seeing a developer defend such activities with some ridiculous postures. Talk about assisting the evil that oppresses you.

That is not a matter of "evil" or not. After all, somebody has to pay your lunch, too, and where is that money coming from? Even better, there are two companies - if Cloanto doesn't want to license, what about asking Hyperion?

[No.3]

Originally Posted by Amiga1992

there was never "bootable" PC software besides the OS, as that's just not how that system worked.

That's wrong! Before hard disks were common with MS DOS PCs there were games which booted and started directly from disk (i.e. without loading MS DOS).

e.g.: https://archive.org/details/Conflict...ge/n7/mode/2up

[Master484]

In my own Blitz programs I have noticed that they won't work without the "diskfont" and "mathtrans" libraries. I use the classic Blitz Basic 2, not AmiBlitz.

It's good to hear that one can get rid of diskfont at least, but is it possible to remove the mathtrans library requirement also? Which Blitz commands use it ?

[Honitos]

The OS's mathtrans.library is used mainly by BlitzBasic's mathtranslib that contains functions like Sin(), Cos(), Sqr(), Exp(), Log() and so on.

Some other blitzlibs make use of it too, as e.g. the ptplaylib.

So if you want get rid of mathtranslib, you have to search for reimplementations of these functions that you use in your code.

BTW, with AmiBlitz3 you can use the "Library Browser" to see all functions or commands that belong to each blitzlib:

[Master484]

Ok, thanks for the info.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

We have now the year 2024. New physical floppy disks are not even made anymore, and if you have an Amiga, you also have a harddisk or a CF adapter in it and start software by means of WHDLoad from the workbench

I think you have drank way too much of the AmigaOS kool-aid.

You're dismissing the interest both from a userbase and from developers in targeting stock oldschool hardware, pretending that "everyone" uses a platform like what you described which is absolutely untrue.
Also WHDload also brings in many issues, I get tired of trying to play a game that keeps bombing with some imposible to diagnose error back to Workbench, slowdowns not present in the original versions and more. Yes it is "convenient" in the same way that Netflix is "convenient", offering a ridiculously large library of titles at your fingertips that you're never going to fully enjoy, but I rather not have any of that and play a game as it was intended. A chore needs to be conveniently dealt with, not an entertainig activity like a retro computer hobby.

Many, many of us will keep working on and for these setups which many times only count with a floppy drive and limited memory, perpetuating the need of "useless" self-bootable software, no matter what you or anyone says.

What's useless is gatekeeping people from an experience they want to have just because "it's 2024" or any other non-sensical explanation in a niche field driven mostly by people stuck a bit in the past somewhat. If you want modernity, get a modern computer, man.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Amiga1992

What's useless is gatekeeping people from an experience they want to have just because "it's 2024" or any other non-sensical explanation in a niche field driven mostly by people stuck a bit in the past somewhat. If you want modernity, get a modern computer, man.

Let me just check my calendar..... actually, yes it is 2024. Strange that you haven't noticed. If you have a source for floppy disks, it would be great to know because we were really short of supply for delivering 3.1.4. What *is* actually non-sensical is that you seem to believe that this is still a practical solution for delivering software.

[Etze]

Originally Posted by Honitos

I did that for AmiBlitz.
It does not open the diskfont.library anymore regardless of the requested font but only, if the font is different than Topaz.

The "fontlib" can be used with Blitz2 as well, just replace it there.

Thank you very much for this improvement!