A1200 or a SEGA Megadrive - which is better...

[Tigerskunk]

Those opacity tricks and dynamic lighting used in DKC are impressive, though.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Those opacity tricks and dynamic lighting used in DKC are impressive, though.

Yes, they are. Like I said - my post was meant more as a bit of a joke/fun and not all that serious.

[Glen M]

I'll just leave this here



In all serious though the Mega Drive is better in some respects and the Amiga better in others (sound being the stand out example). The Mega Drive was helped by its Japanese developers and it don't matter what you say games out of Japan at the time were simply better.

Oh and the SNES might have some fancy effects buts its not that great of a console. It can't do Starfox without its super FX chip. The CD32 can do guardian out of the box (mostly)

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by Glen M

In all serious though the Mega Drive is better in some respects

In which, considering You can emulate MD on Amiga (with powerful enough CPU)? See example few posts earlier.

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

In which, considering You can emulate MD on Amiga (with powerful enough CPU)? See example few posts earlier.

I don't doubt you can emulate a Mega Drive on a fast enough Amiga. I see another thread about DOSBOX on a stupidly fast 68k Amiga.

The vast majority of Amiga games from the late 80s / early 90s are simply just inferior to the Mega Drive version. Either missing graphics, missing sound effect, missing controls. The Mega Drive is a better home gaming platform.

Take a look at Aladdin from a few pages back. Amiga port may sound better but its controls are hampered with the single button input and the parallax scrolling is missing on the background. Aladdin is perhaps one of the best looking Amiga platformers, the Mega Drive version is better.

Perhaps it's not what could have been done but rather what developers couldn't be arsed doing. Again as has already been said, and I've said before in other threads, I can't help but get the feeling that those software houses that ported the console games to home computers in the UK picked the weakest system they wanted to port to and worked to that standard.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by Glen M

The vast majority of Amiga games from the late 80s / early 90s are simply just inferior to the Mega Drive version. Either missing graphics, missing sound effect, missing controls. The Mega Drive is a better home gaming platform.

And how many of them are for OCS/ECS and >=1MB? Remember that Amiga can use up to 3 buttons from first day. It's fault of programming and limiting to OCS/ECS. Remember it's about A1200 with AGA, so take just AGA games.

Originally Posted by Glen M

Take a look at Aladdin from a few pages back. Amiga port may sound better but its controls are hampered with the single button input

It's again programmers fault, CD32 joypad have 7 buttons and see WHDLoad version.

      CD³² joypad controls:
      -------------------- 
      Blue                  - Jump
      Green                  - Throw apples
      Play                - Pause the game
      Reverse+Forward+Red+Green      - Exit game (ESC)
      Reverse+Forward+Play        - Quit game (pressed at least 1 sec.)
      Reverse+Forward+Red+Blue+Green+Yellow    - Active trainers                          (unlimited lives & level skip)
      Yellow+Forward            - Skip level
        Set 'joypad throw' in game option to swap Blue/Green buttons.

Originally Posted by Glen M

and the parallax scrolling is missing on the background.

And that could be done. Again, blame programmers not hardware.

Originally Posted by Glen M

Perhaps it's not what could have been done but rather what developers couldn't be arsed doing. Again as has already been said, and I've said before in other threads, I can't help but get the feeling that those software houses that ported the console games to home computers in the UK picked the weakest system they wanted to port to and worked to that standard.

And that's the problem, not hardware fault. Sadly some Amiga games are made in hurry and with lowest as possible work.

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

And how many of them are for OCS/ECS and >=1MB? Remember that Amiga can use up to 3 buttons from first day. It's fault of programming and limiting to OCS/ECS. Remember it's about A1200 with AGA, so take just AGA games.

Extremely good point. I was thinking Amiga generally not AGA solely. I withdraw my previous comment and could probably name you a handful of AGA games the mega drive would struggle with.

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

And that's the problem, not hardware fault. Sadly some Amiga games are made in hurry and with lowest as possible work.

Agreed and the quality of current games being created only goes to further prove that.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by Glen M

The vast majority of Amiga games from the late 80s / early 90s are simply just inferior to the Mega Drive version. Either missing graphics, missing sound effect, missing controls. The Mega Drive is a better home gaming platform.

In truth, the vast majority of Amiga games are not available on the Mega Drive at all. This is not surprising since there are around 7000 Amiga games listed on hol.abime.net (which is known to be an incomplete list), compared to a mere 900 or so Mega Drive games existing in total.

Quite a few of those 'missing games' are quite good. I'd actually argue that (some of) the very best games on the Amiga are not actually available on the MD (though they might be available on other platforms). I'd also argue they are every bit as good or even better than the very best the MD has to offer across it's entire library. True, these games are almost all in non-action genres - but that shouldn't matter when discussing what system is better for gaming in general.

IMHO there's far to much focus on action games in these kind of comparisons and that causes a lot of bias to creep in, as that just so happens to be what the consoles do well.

Now, I accept the answer to the question which is best rather depends on what kind of games you like to play so you may well not agree with what I'm about to say. But personally I'd rank the likes of Civilization, F/A 18 interceptor, Elite/Frontier, Eye of the Beholder, Dune II, Lemmings, the SSI gold box series, The Settlers, Stunt Car Racer, etc, etc, etc as true classics. I'd also rate each of these as at least on par with the best MD games, across all genres.

It's interesting that all of these games are either not available on the MD or are objectively better/more fun to play on the Amiga. Sometimes due to the better control scheme on the Amiga, sometimes those games were better from a technical perspective (not in the least due to the extra RAM capacity of the Amiga which fits those kind of games better).

Edit: to me it all just goes to show that each system has it's own pro's and cons. The Amiga is not perfect, but neither is the MD. The MD shines when doing pure action games, but it IMHO does a lot worse in other genres. Some genres are AFAIK missing altogether. So, is the Amiga better than the MD? Well, if you like your mix of games like I do (which is to say a mix of many genres but aimed more at strategy, RPGs, simulations, etc than action), it may well be. If you strongly prefer action games, it probably isn't.

Edit 2: note this is not meant as an attack on your preferences in any way, I'm just trying to show something I've always found baffling when doing comparisons like these. Somehow, such comparisons seemingly only focus on the type of games the consoles do much better and more or less ignore those that computers do better. This has always puzzled me.

[sokolovic]

Turrican 3 run on 512kb low end Amiga. I'm pretty sure if it was AGA from the start, it would have been largely on par with the MD version, at least.

The most technically impressive Amiga games were made on the OCS, and they were made around 1992/1993/1994, at least 8 years after the original Amiga was released. Aga was'nt barely used at his full potential. It had only two years, at max of commercial life, and by 1995, the trend was to make doom-like games, not impressive 2D side scroller so nobody really bothered to make that type of game on the 1200.

Had Factor 5, Neon Design, Magnetic Fields or Thalion made a game using AGA capabilities (and made with targeting the AGA capabilities at fist and at it full potential, like Mr Nutz, Kid Chaos or Lionheart did for the OCS), well maybe we would have seen his full potential.

The engine made by McGeezer for the splendid Rygar AGA version could maybe be used to make some others classic arcade games conversion for the A1200 (like Ghouls'n Ghost, Contra, or some Castlevania...). I don't see why it couldn't handle that.

Oh. And Starfox,..; I don't see why this would be impossible to make on an A1200, especially considering the cardridge use a 3D coprocessor. At that time, I was playing Frontier and this game seems to me way more impressive than Starfox (and way more interesting)... By the way, I seem to remember that Frontier was planned for the SNES but eventually shelved, because the console just could'nt handle the game without adding an expensive coprocessor to the cardirdge (not every publisher could afford what Nintendo could at that time)

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by roondar

Well, if you like your mix of games like I do (which is to say a mix of many genres but aimed more at strategy, RPGs, simulations, etc than action), it may well be. If you strongly prefer action games, it probably isn't.

Exactly.
Secret of the monkey Island, Dune 1, K240, Cannon Fodder, Civilization, Simon the sorcerer... many, many, amazing games completely missing, and genres of rpg's, adventures and strategy games, almost non existent!

And all this, not considering amazing world of Workbench, Deluxe Paint, Real3D, Octamed, Protracker...

Yeah... it's a child toy... same as Snes... :P

[lordofchaos]

Amiga is simply not a choice, it's a way of life man! Hehe. I do enjoy reading these chats, reminds me of school, in a good way of course.

Seems strange to pit a home computer against a console, one being primarily aimed at gaming ,the other being a versatile multi purpose machine. Good fun though.

[Dunny]

Amiga 1200 for me. My friend had a Megadrive, with about four games. He couldn't afford more, they were expensive.

I pirated all mine. 1200 wins.

[rcman]

I specs make it interesting for sure.

CPU: 16-bit Motorola 68000 running at 7.61 MHz
Co-processor: Zilog Z80 running at 4 MHz (Not Present in model MK-1631) controls PSG (Programmable Sound Generator) & FM Chips
RAM: 64 Kbytes
ROM: 1 Mbytes (8-Mbit)
VRAM: 64 Kbytes (Video Ram)
Graphics: VDP (Video Display Processor) dedicated video display processor for playfield and sprite control, 3 Planes, 2 scrolling playfields, 1 sprite plane
Colours Available: 512
Max. Colours on screen: 64
CRAM: 64 x 9-kbit (Colour RAM)
Pixel Resolution: 320 x 224, 40 x 28 text display mode
Sound: Texas Instruments PSG (Programmable Sound Generator) TI 76489 chip, Yamaha YM 2612 FM chip
Signal/Noise Ratio: 14dB
Sound Channels: 6 stereo sound channels
Sound RAM: 8 Kbytes
1 sidecar expansion slot
1 cartridge port
2 joystick ports
AV port
Backwards compatible with all Sega Master System games using converter

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by roondar

In truth, the vast majority of Amiga games are not available on the Mega Drive at all. This is not surprising since there are around 7000 Amiga games listed on hol.abime.net (which is known to be an incomplete list), compared to a mere 900 or so Mega Drive games existing in total.

Quite a few of those 'missing games' are quite good. I'd actually argue that (some of) the very best games on the Amiga are not actually available on the MD (though they might be available on other platforms). I'd also argue they are every bit as good or even better than the very best the MD has to offer across it's entire library. True, these games are almost all in non-action genres - but that shouldn't matter when discussing what system is better for gaming in general.

IMHO there's far to much focus on action games in these kind of comparisons and that causes a lot of bias to creep in, as that just so happens to be what the consoles do well.

Now, I accept the answer to the question which is best rather depends on what kind of games you like to play so you may well not agree with what I'm about to say. But personally I'd rank the likes of Civilization, F/A 18 interceptor, Elite/Frontier, Eye of the Beholder, Dune II, Lemmings, the SSI gold box series, The Settlers, Stunt Car Racer, etc, etc, etc as true classics. I'd also rate each of these as at least on par with the best MD games, across all genres.

It's interesting that all of these games are either not available on the MD or are objectively better/more fun to play on the Amiga. Sometimes due to the better control scheme on the Amiga, sometimes those games were better from a technical perspective (not in the least due to the extra RAM capacity of the Amiga which fits those kind of games better).

Edit: to me it all just goes to show that each system has it's own pro's and cons. The Amiga is not perfect, but neither is the MD. The MD shines when doing pure action games, but it IMHO does a lot worse in other genres. Some genres are AFAIK missing altogether. So, is the Amiga better than the MD? Well, if you like your mix of games like I do (which is to say a mix of many genres but aimed more at strategy, RPGs, simulations, etc than action), it may well be. If you strongly prefer action games, it probably isn't.

Edit 2: note this is not meant as an attack on your preferences in any way, I'm just trying to show something I've always found baffling when doing comparisons like these. Somehow, such comparisons seemingly only focus on the type of games the consoles do much better and more or less ignore those that computers do better. This has always puzzled me.

Taking Amiga as a general term than rather than focusing solely on AGA your statement falls into my comment that the Mega Drive is better in some respects and by that I mean the games library.

My post you quoted "The vast majority of Amiga games from the late 80s / early 90s are simply just inferior to the Mega Drive version." implies that I am referring to a game available on both platforms of which the Mega Drive port is generally the superior. I would again cite Aladdin and also offer most Sega Arcade ports as evidence of this. The main reason for this in most instances won't be hardware limitation (as pointed out above) but rather developer lazyness.

As you suggest discussions of this type tend to focus of the strong points from the console which generally are the week points of the computer i.e. fast paced action platformer type games. I suppose it will come as no surprise then that I prefer my stragety and adventure games on the Amiga and my action or platformers on the console. That's not to say there are no examples of good games from each genre on either platform but generally this statement holds true.

As a community of Amiga enthusiasts we could all very quickly draw up a list of why the Amiga is better but I find in these topics people tend to pick out the best of the comparing system in this case the Mega Drive and put the Amiga to task to try and equal it hence why tempers do occasionally get frayed.

That's enough word salad from me today.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by Glen M

My post you quoted "The vast majority of Amiga games from the late 80s / early 90s are simply just inferior to the Mega Drive version." implies that I am referring to a game available on both platforms of which the Mega Drive port is generally the superior.

Well, here's the thing. I still would partly agree and disagree with that

I don't have a full list of games on both platforms, but I expect that generally the action games and MD originals would be better on the MD and the Amiga originals/non actions games would be better on the Amiga. Since I don't have the lists, I'm not certain what percentage of games that are available on both fall into each of the kinds/genres we're talking about here. But anyway, to give a counterexample to Aladdin: Lemmings is worse on the MD, because the controls basically suck compared to using a mouse.

But I get your point and as I said before - for action games I'd usually agree.

As you suggest discussions of this type tend to focus of the strong points from the console which generally are the week points of the computer i.e. fast paced action platformer type games. I suppose it will comes as no surprise then that I prefer my stragety and adventure games on the Amiga and my action or platformers on the console. That's not to say there are no examples of good games from each genre on either platform but generally this statement holds true.

I mostly agree with this, although in fairness there's still quite a few Amiga action games I do like - though I admit these tend to be Amiga only or Amiga originals. And I also admit that some people tend to dislike those games quite a bit. I love me some Alien Breed for instance, which apparently is a rather divisive statement to make

Then again, I've always loathed Sonic the Hedgehog. Can't stand that game. So there is an element of personal opinion involved here

As a community of Amiga enthusiasts we could all very quickly draw up a list of why the Amiga is better but I find in these topics people tend to pick out the best of the comparing system in this case the Mega Drive and put the Amiga to task to try and equal it hence why tempers do occasionally get frayed.

Yup, that's what I noted as well and I still find it odd. It's fine to me to say that action games normally do (much) better on the MD, but then at least we should be honest enough to add that non-action games normally do (much) better on the Amiga and admit these are also part of the good/great games lists. Swings and Roundabouts, basically.

That's enough word salad from me today.

Enjoy your day

[mcgeezer]

I think what we need here is a Amiga vs Megadrive game off.
Present the best Mega drive games and an Amiga game to match it and vice-versa.

I think technically with the tile based playfields the Mega drive wins for platformer / shmups but then for other types of games the Amiga/AGA beats it.... one could argue though that that is a console versus computer point.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

I think technically with the tile based playfields the Mega drive wins for platformer / shmups but then for other types of games the Amiga/AGA beats it.... one could argue though that that is a console versus computer point.

Yet, Amiga have so many great platformers, and action games, while MD have a barely an adventure, rpg, or strategy game.
It would be equal, if Amiga lacked very cool platformers-shooters, but it doesn't, I hope all could agree to this.

[rare_j]

Ha ha, the answer nobody wants... 'it depends'

[drHirudo]

Don't forget that very big games for the times, like most of the adventures - Simon The Sorcerer, Gobliins, Beneath a Steel Sky came on many discs and would be very expensive to have on cartridges. That's why they weren't developed at all. Of course there was the MegaCD extension for really big games (which was a flop), but there is also the A1200 CD extension for playing CD32 games which didn't use the Akiko Chip (which wasn't that big flop at the beginning).

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by roondar

But anyway, to give a counterexample to Aladdin: Lemmings is worse on the MD, because the controls basically suck compared to using a mouse.

But I get your point and as I said before - for action games I'd usually agree.
I mostly agree with this, although in fairness there's still quite a few Amiga action games I do like - though I admit these tend to be Amiga only or Amiga originals. And I also admit that some people tend to dislike those games quite a bit. I love me some Alien Breed for instance, which apparently is a rather divisive statement to make

Then again, I've always loathed Sonic the Hedgehog. Can't stand that game. So there is an element of personal opinion involved here

Yup, that's what I noted as well and I still find it odd. It's fine to me to say that action games normally do (much) better on the MD, but then at least we should be honest enough to add that non-action games normally do (much) better on the Amiga and admit these are also part of the good/great games lists. Swings and Roundabouts, basically.
Enjoy your day

I think we agree on most points.

Alien Breed is a fantastic game and yes I can't understand how people do not see that but then again Sonic 1 and 2 on the Mega Drive are 2 of my favourite platforms ever, especially Sonic 2. I can stick it on an loose an hour easily, more much so that Zool, Alfred, Brian, Nutz etc on the Amiga.

I suppose at the end of the day you simply need to accept that there are great games on each platform but there are also terrible games on each platform. At least the Amiga didn't get a port of Greendog.