Expectations of new Amiga games and the bedroom coder

[tarr]

Please see this post for the reason this thread has been created http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...5&postcount=33



What every Amiga fan would like too see is something to rival with Lionheart.
Metro Siege seems one of those games that finally started to came out at the end of the Amiga lifespan showing what it really could do (Lionheart, Turrican III, Kid Chaos, Jim Power, Team 17's stuff, Elfmania, Fighting Spirts, Shadow Fighter and so on).

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by Predseda

Yes, amigans want well established clichés, thats right.

Which is a darn disgrace.

I did envision amiga retrogame development as a less pressured way to experiment and push boundaries (see vergeworld icarus) and instead people want the early 90s all the way; i honestly think is a waste of potential: Amiga can do MUCH better than just do 90s games and i would love to see metroidvanias, modern graphic styles, RETRO graphic styles (atari, c64, gameboy,etc) and new genres of gaming here! Using also new media formats like thought for gotek and media flash, not only for a single floppy game in example!

Criticize me all the way you want but i want to do music the way I would like it to be in a game, not the moddy-ST-01y way you might like; new genres (dubstep, synthwave, chiptune, etc.), different sample styles beside clean, interactions, two, three, even ONE channel - if it fits the mood and the narrative; have amiga act as a blank canvas and not just as an Amiga! And that, ladies and gents DO exploit amiga much more than just Amiga being itself!

And, no, am NOT leaving Amiga alone and do what i like in a PC, because doing it there is mainstream, while doing it in an amiga IS cutting edge AND the most important part!

Do you want games that push the envelope? Then we have to go out of YOUR confort zone; ok for commercial endeavors sales are important but there are times where WE devs need to tell their audience what to like or test! ^______^

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Steril707

That's true..

Yep, I know how you are doing this (read your nice overview on this).
But I'd say the amount of leeway you have with 15+1 colours is very very different from 7+1.

Yes, absolutely. I was refferencing a 16 color palette primarily. Though as you say this can indeed help dual playfield as well.

Originally Posted by Steril707

Yeah, but will that work for a "bigger" release?

I reckon it definitely will. Look at games like [ Show youtube player ] f.e.

It's a title that is 100% achievable on Amiga (imho) and despite it's simplistic, monochromatic gfx it looks absolutely stunning! It became a massive success in the PC world and I bet it would have a signifficant impact in the Amiga world as well. Obviously you'd still have people that may (or will) complain but that's a given and for a high quality game it's guaranteed to be a minority regardless.

Originally Posted by saimon69

Which is a darn disgrace.

Well, I think nothing is stoping us to do whatever the heck we want and experiment all the way through honestly.
On the other hand, we make games and art for ourselves as well as the public, so if we crave for acceptance and positiveness we also need to be prepared to accept, process or filter (in a way that would be useful to us and our progress) the negative stuff as wel.

[mcgeezer]

Originally Posted by tarr

What every Amiga fan would like too see is something to rival with Lionheart.
Metro Siege seems one of those games that finally started to came out at the end of the Amiga lifespan showing what it really could do (Lionheart, Turrican III, Kid Chaos, Jim Power, Team 17's stuff, Elfmania, Fighting Spirts, Shadow Fighter and so on).

Do you know why the latest Amiga games don't live up to the quality of the titles you quote here?

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Tsak

I reckon it definitely will. Look at games like [ Show youtube player ] f.e.

Oh, I love that game. I played that a lot on my PS Vita, and on one point I was even considering doing something in that graphics style on OCS (with lot's of "Juice" ).

Like I said, I love those oldschoolish looking things with a new twist on it and in the beginning of Inviyya I was definitely trying out be way more avantgarde with my graphics style instead of "ye good old default 16 color palette Amiga game".

But on the other side I am a bit tired having discussions with wankers that think that graphics need to look like being pixeled by Henk Nieborg, and that the music needs to sound like being trackered by Chris Hülsbeck in the early 90ies or the game is shit in their view.

Difficult to have the right stance here...

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by Steril707

But on the other side I am a bit tired having discussions with wankers that think that graphics need to look like being pixeled by Henk Nieborg, and that the music needs to sound like being trackered by Chris Hülsbeck in the early 90ies or the game is shit in their view.

Difficult to have the right stance here...

I hear you, my friend: i hear you ^^

[mcgeezer]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Oh, I love that game. I played that a lot on my PS Vita, and on one point I was even considering doing something in that graphics style on OCS (with lot's of "Juice" ).

Like I said, I love those oldschoolish looking things with a new twist on it and in the beginning of Inviyya I was definitely trying out be way more avantgarde with my graphics style instead of "ye good old default 16 color palette Amiga game".

But on the other side I am a bit tired having discussions with wankers that think that graphics need to look like being pixeled by Henk Nieborg, and that the music needs to sound like being trackered by Chris Hülsbeck in the early 90ies or the game is shit in their view.

Difficult to have the right stance here...

mate, this is an easy one.... don't talk to wankers, it will judge take up your time.

Believe me, I've been there and they'll just wear you down because they just a) compare the production to the early 90's and
b) compare the production to the 8 bit platforms.

Making a game on a <insert your 8 bit here> is a piece of piss compared to a 16 bit (Amiga/ST) game.

Hold your head up high, make your game, release it and enjoy the plaudits. Take on constructive criticism but don't let the bastards grind you down.

Any time you want to talk, you know where I am.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Oh, I love that game. I played that a lot on my PS Vita, and on one point I was even considering doing something in that graphics style on OCS (with lot's of "Juice" ).

Like I said, I love those oldschoolish looking things with a new twist on it and in the beginning of Inviyya I was definitely trying out be way more avantgarde with my graphics style instead of "ye good old default 16 color palette Amiga game".

But on the other side I am a bit tired having discussions with wankers that think that graphics need to look like being pixeled by Henk Nieborg, and that the music needs to sound like being trackered by Chris Hülsbeck in the early 90ies or the game is shit in their view.

Difficult to have the right stance here...

Simply don't have those conversations with wankers chap. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Its lovely that everyone has an opinion, but unless they are paying you for your efforts or are prepared to have a go at developing something themselves, then ignore them.

I'd love to program the equivalent of Turrican IV or Shadow of the Beast IV, but time is precious, its limited, and people expecting that level of attention to detail for a project that will NEVER EVER enable you to reap the rewards financially, its a big ask.

My attitude to this is: Most people will probably like what I do, a minority will not.

I just don't care what the latter think, because they are entirely negative all the time, would never contribute financially or with help toward getting the project finished, but expect it to be everything they've dreamed about with no effort from them other than dreaming about it.

Developing a game from start to finish and releasing it is far harder than the 2 minutes it takes to bitch about it.

Ignore them, they'll never be happy, and entitled people can fuck off!

[tarr]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

Do you know why the latest Amiga games don't live up to the quality of the titles you quote here?

Maybe it's because they need too much work and effort and will not pay themselves, but who knows? We cannot know if such a game would earn its creators enough money back until it comes out.
I would happily pay € 20 - 25 (maybe € 30) for a game of Lionheart's quality, even if it was only a digital download.

(oh, I've forgot First Samurai :P )

[tarr]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Which is a darn disgrace.

I did envision amiga retrogame development as a less pressured way to experiment and push boundaries (see vergeworld icarus) and instead people want the early 90s all the way;

I hate to be that guy, but vergeworld icarus seems nothing to hype about: poor graphics and a game concept for a machine that maybe just can't handle it.
I think that what a lot of people (including me) would like to see on the Amiga platform is something like the 90's, but better coded than it was back in the days. Something we Amiga gamers started to see and experience in the last few months of the Amiga Games Maket's life (again: Lionheart, Elflania, Shadow Fighter, Fighting Spirit, First and Second Samurai, Apydia, mr Nutz, Turrican III, and so on).
if I want a more modern game i0d pick up a more modern machine, not the Amiga.

[mcgeezer]

Originally Posted by tarr

I hate to be that guy, but vergeworld icarus seems nothing to hype about: poor graphics and a game concept for a machine that maybe just can't handle it.
I think that what a lot of people (including me) would like to see on the Amiga platform is something like the 90's, but better coded than it was back in the days. Something we Amiga gamers started to see and experience in the last few months of the Amiga Games Maket's life (again: Lionheart, Elflania, Shadow Fighter, Fighting Spirit, First and Second Samurai, Apydia, mr Nutz, Turrican III, and so on).
if I want a more modern game i0d pick up a more modern machine, not the Amiga.

If you want a game like that then learn how to code, hire or persuade an artist who’ll work for next to nothing, get a musician while you’re at it and enjoy the thousand hours writing 20,000 lines of assembler it will take to produce it.... or spend your £30 on a modern game for a modern platform.

Seriously, I’d love to see new commercial quality Amiga games coming out but to expect that calliber of game from home brew devs is quite frankly - fucking stupid. Appreciation versus expectation is unbalanced.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by tarr

I hate to be that guy, but vergeworld icarus seems nothing to hype about: poor graphics and a game concept for a machine that maybe just can't handle it.

It's sometimes funny how opinions differ. I actually think the graphics for Vergewold Icarus are fine. Certainly not terrible, I've seen way worse on the Amiga - even for 2D games.

What sells it for me is the art direction, it has a great choice of colours in it and a certain kind of style that just makes it look really good to me, same with the sound/music - it all just fits. A lot of effort went into designing that game and it shows.

I think that what a lot of people (including me) would like to see on the Amiga platform is something like the 90's, but better coded than it was back in the days. Something we Amiga gamers started to see and experience in the last few months of the Amiga Games Maket's life (again: Lionheart, Elflania, Shadow Fighter, Fighting Spirit, First and Second Samurai, Apydia, mr Nutz, Turrican III, and so on).
if I want a more modern game i0d pick up a more modern machine, not the Amiga.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't feel it's realistic to expect such things. Those products often took a year or longer of full time work (plus overtime) for a team of three to ten people to pull of. That kind of time investment is just not going to happen.

It's not a matter of talent - the talent is there. We've got some great artists, coders and musicians working on Amiga games & demos. It's just a matter of time and willpower. And to be brutally honest - wishing for those expansive "commercial+" quality games and arguing that is what the community should aim for is part of the problem.

It scares people off (not in an actual "fear" sense, but in a "I'm not gonna bother" sense). I've seen it happen here more than once. Some of the recent(ish) Amiga releases were objectively quite good from a technical and art position. Much more so if you take the team size and time spent into consideration. Yet, most of these games got lots of criticism about the graphics, or the tech stuff, etc. Sometimes even just the choice of game type. This stuff doesn't exactly motivate people.

Edit: just to be clear, when I look at Metro Siege, to me that does show a certain ambition for quality beyond the usual homebrew game. But there's a price: everyone involved expects it to take quite a while (several years even) to be done and it's been in development for a long time already. Such a level of effort is simply not going to be the norm - most people just don't have the will or the time for that.

[tarr]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

If you want a game like that then learn how to code, hire or persuade an artist who’ll work for next to nothing, get a musician while you’re at it and enjoy the thousand hours writing 20,000 lines of assembler it will take to produce it.... or spend your £30 on a modern game for a modern platform.

Seriously, I’d love to see new commercial quality Amiga games coming out but to expect that calliber of game from home brew devs is quite frankly - fucking stupid. Appreciation versus expectation is unbalanced.

There is no need to be so rude. Fucking Stupid?

I am talking about dreams, and dreams are what our relationship with the Amiga was made of, back in the days.
Moreover: stuff like Retro Siege, Rygar and Rehoot R show that you are wrong and that techincally impressive games, better than the one we were used to, are possible, even by small teams.

[tarr]

Originally Posted by roondar

And to be brutally honest - wishing for those expansive "commercial+" quality games and arguing that is what the community should aim for is part of the problem.

So you dream of a community happy with black and white Galaga clones on a machine that we dreamt could run Megadrive and Super Famicom quality games (not to mention RPGs and Adventure Games? Meh.

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by tarr

There is no need to be so rude. Fucking Stupid?

I am talking about dreams, and dreams are what our relationship with the Amiga was made of, back in the days.
Moreover: stuff like Retro Siege, Rygar and Rehoot R show that you are wrong and that techincally impressive games, better than the one we were used to, are possible, even by small teams.

Well McGeezer DID Rygar, so he know what is talking about, btw.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by tarr

There is no need to be so rude. Fucking Stupid?

I am talking about dreams, and dreams are what our relationship with the Amiga was made of, back in the days.
Moreover: stuff like Retro Siege, Rygar and Rehoot R show that you are wrong and that techincally impressive games, better than the one we were used to, are possible, even by small teams.

You realise you're discussing with the guy who converted Rygar?

Obviously not.

McGeezer isn't wrong. Yes all three games you mention are good, but you clearly have no idea the amount of effort for very little return you get back for it.

If you want to encourage development, but can't physically contribute yourself, then maybe put your hand in your pocket.

Dreams don't pay them bills, families get pissy when husbands/boyfriends spend too much time with a commercially dead computer platform.

McGeezer is giving you the reality, if he hadn't have decided to put all that work in to do Rygar, it wouldn't exist.

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by tarr

So you dream of a community happy with black and white Galaga clones on a machine that we dreamt could run Megadrive and Super Famicom quality games (not to mention RPGs and Adventure Games? Meh.

When someone is not part of the solution then is part of the problem, and the problem is entitled (like yours) feedback send devs away!

[italian]
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[/italian]

[tarr]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Well McGeezer DID Rygar, so he know what is talking about, btw.

Wow, I didn't notice. So, he's the man who made a dream come true (arcade perfect Rygar on the Amiga) and still he does not accept that the Amiga users dream about quality games, as if Commodore did not crumbled and we still were in 1994-1995 watching the results of Thalion's big effort?

[tarr]

I perfectly understand the problem (little money, big effort, no reward, difficult family life, and so on), but the Amiga scene is doomed to die soon if something great does not come out. Something that could be what Sam's Journey is today for the C64.
I am not asking anyone to do that, I am ony dreaming ad speculating.

[saimon69]

Well, actually Amiga IS already dead - mainstream commercially speaking, of course, so now we are here doing our own pet projects and try to make a bit cash off it when possible and at our own pace; chillin down doing amiga stuff^^

You might not have been around the last five or six years, but there were dark times where most of things were dull; just recently there has been some revitalization with more homebrew project than usual, the emergence of Red Pill engine, some dev kits on Windows and the revitalization of Blitz and Amos.

However quality games require time and effort; more on Amiga than in a usual 8 bit computer; stakes are higher.

The main mistake a lot of people do is to confuse the COMMERCIAL amiga scene of the times with the HOMEBREW/PD scene; is the latter you have to compare productions of users with, not the first one.

I feel the frustration because was like you in the amiga years, but at the same time, working myself in doing an amiga game (Powder), was able to understand what is going on behind the scenes.

But at the end even doing things with our pace and time miracles CAN happen: did you see this? Don't lose hope, there are other interesting projects coming and, if you have some skills, you could help too!

[ Show youtube player ]