Support for 100Hz/120Hz lightboost strobe

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by CFOU!

yes

no problem with other no beta version with 100hz/120HZ/

i will try with another Beta version without strobe support
this version by exapme:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=870793&postcount=91

i'll confirme to you

Ok, do following tests: double vs triple buffer, any change? Using approximate or cycle-exact mode (fastest possible CPU mode has higher vsync requirements)

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Ok, do following tests: double vs triple buffer, any change? Using approximate or cycle-exact mode (fastest possible CPU mode has higher vsync requirements)

ok

with WinUAE B9:

no strobe effect

but colors are good in 120herz pressing Ctrl+T or not

more over in 3d vision mode + 3d glasses => it's smooth as CRT and color are good

with Winuae B11

1) without 100hz/120hz GUI option activated
=> bug
indeed there are bad strobe effect at all rate 60hz, 100hz, etc... it's unplayabe and desyncrhonisious

2) With 100hz/120hz GUI option activated + buffer
=> smooth as crt (after to have press one time on keys Ctrl+T)

but bug:
- colors are bad (like RGB filter)
=> testing changing all options (Fastest possible/exact cycle / double buffer/triple buffer) cause no changement
- sometimes if i swith from option 'fastest possible' to exact-cycle
=>i see pixels shake on a still image (if i set triple buffer, always bad colors but no shake)

3) With 100hz/120hz Gui option acrtivaed + no buffer
=> color ok (no strobe)
but of course no smooth effect => blur effect is here

[Toni Wilen]

http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip fixes <100Hz mode slowdown.

Your 100Hz+ problem is probably driver or monitor specific weirdness.

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip fixes <100Hz mode slowdown.

Your 100Hz+ problem is probably driver or monitor specific weirdness.

i will test this ivening new patch

monitor is a classic 120hz+ monitor (asus) and it works fine with mame strobe version

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip fixes <100Hz mode slowdown.

Your 100Hz+ problem is probably driver or monitor specific weirdness.

yes <100hz fixed here

but bad color always in stobe mode

2d scroll +3d glasses are better (no color corruption)

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by CFOU!

yes >100hz fixed here

but bad color always in stobe mode

2d scroll +3d glasses are better (no color corruption)

Which points to driver difference. Different driver profile? WinUAE won't know or care if there is "3D" mode active or not.

This is not my problem, sorry.

EDIT: Take a photo of the color problem.

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Which points to driver difference. Different driver profile? WinUAE won't know or care if there is "3D" mode active or not.

This is not my problem, sorry.

EDIT: Take a photo of the color problem.

here you can compare to image from BC kid

At left 3d vision mode (smooth like CRT +3d vision glasses)

top: Blue & white are fine
bottom: BC kid have good color and i can"t see RGB color

At right Strobe option activated (smooth like CRT but color are bad and dark)

top: Blue is too dark & white are not white... i can see RGB color!!!!!
bottom: BC kid have bad & dark color & i can see RGB color too

i will upload in TheZone! full photo soon and after RTG strobe screen->same pb

[mdrejhon]

Originally Posted by CFOU!

but i knewn it's possible to display smooth scrolling on LCD

I assume you've now enabled the LightBoost trick on your ASUS VG278H?

Just so you know, it makes a massive further improvement:
120 Hz standard LCD = 50% less motion blur with UAE with strobe patch
120 Hz LightBoost LCD = 90% less motion blur with UAE with stroe patch

You need both the black-frame strobe patch (software tweak), and the LightBoost trick (hardware settings tweak) to get the approx 90% motion blur reduction (compared to a 60 Hz LCD).

[mdrejhon]

Originally Posted by CFOU!

here you can compare to image from BC kid
At left 3d vision mode (smooth like CRT +3d vision glasses)
At right Strobe option activated (smooth like CRT but color are bad and dark)

I own a BENQ XL2411T and an ASUS VG278H, both of them 120 Hz.
I see a similar problem with the VG278H, but far less on the BENQ XL2411T.

I believe it is a limitation of specific monitor models.
But at least, you don't need to wear 3D glasses (which can also darken too) to get the zero motion blur effect during 2D gameplay. The artifacts you have shown, appears to be a hardware-specific limitation, so I don't think this part can be fixed in software;

There are two aspects:

1. The darkening is normal; you're getting reduced brightness either way with black frame insertion.

2. The checkerboard pattern is the hardware LCD inversion artifacts that you are seeing. More info about the science behind this. On the other hand, the amplification of LCD inversion (showing up as RGB stripes) may be a beneficial CRT-style artifact to some people adding an air of old-display-style authenticity (desirable or undesirable depending on person). LightBoost seems to amplify the appearance of that on certain displays; and it appears the black-frame (60Hz strobing within 120hz signal) amplifies this artifact on my VG278H but not on my XL2411T. The ASUS VG278H has more of that than the BENQ XL2411T (or the ASUS VG248QE for that matter). So, it seems enabling this black frame insertion (strobe) mode on the XL2411T seems to be better than enabling this mode on the VG278H. I've also noticed that the artifacts can improve if you adjust the Contrast on your VG278H up and down a bit; try testing settings of 70 or 80 or 90.

One side effect I've noticed, is there's less input lag with both MAME and WinUAE in 120 Hz mode; and adding black frame insertion keeps this advantage (as long as BFI is blanking out the second repeat refresh, not the first repeat refresh). The reduced input lag is good for fast button-mash games like Street Fighter, etc.

Does anybody here have one of the new 1ms 24" monitors, such as the BENQ XL2411T or the ASUS VG248QE, to test with? Either way, it appears some users might end up having a choice between "smooth like CRT" versus "having better color but lots of motion blur" versus "having to wear the 3D glasses to get the zero motion blur 2D effect"

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by mdrejhon

I assume you've now enabled the LightBoost trick on your ASUS VG278H?

Just so you know, it makes a massive further improvement:
120 Hz standard LCD = 50% less motion blur with UAE with strobe patch
120 Hz LightBoost LCD = 90% less motion blur with UAE with stroe patch

You need both the black-frame strobe patch (software tweak), and the LightBoost trick (hardware settings tweak) to get the approx 90% motion blur reduction (compared to a 60 Hz LCD).

yes lightboost is full see both photos uploed for you in thezone!

on RTG winuae screen is more visible see linked picture (RGB bug is very visible => clique on photos)

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by mdrejhon

1. The darkening is normal; you're getting reduced brightness either way with black frame insertion.

yes but is too dark...

i had done arificial black frame insertion (on frame on 2 in Vertival Blank interup) in a trainer

for test on normal winuae
see for test my little trainer usinf black frame insersion
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=875123&postcount=38

of course VBR code it's slow down (normal)

But it's a bit smooth but less dark... with strobe option

[CFou!]

more over mame strobe version is very smooth without to be also dark and without RGB bug, so is not hardware imitation... i think


see mame strobe version photo(full in thezone):

- no also dark
- no rgb bug...
- it's smooth like CRT..... without 3d glasses

so it think it's can't be harware.....

[cpharlok]

What happens if you disable all kind of image filtering? Are you using any kind of mask? It feels like it in the bckid photo you uploaded.

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by cpharlok

What happens if you disable all kind of image filtering? Are you using any kind of mask? It feels like it in the bckid photo you uploaded.

no filter

except horizontal/vertical size x2 (see filter menu)

but problem is same with X1...

[mdrejhon]

Originally Posted by CFOU!

more over mame strobe version is very smooth without to be also dark and without RGB bug, so is not hardware imitation... i think

Very interesting observations. Could it be the different color palettes in use? LightBoost can affect that in unexpected ways. Also, can you verify that LightBoost is indeed enabled in both situations?

Start MAME strobe. Open monitor's OSD. Does the monitor menu have an enabled "LightBoost" setting?
Also disable HLSL and all filters; observe the effects.

Start UAE strobe. Open monitor's OSD. Does the monitor menu have an enabled "LightBoost" setting?

so it think it's can't be harware.....

It might be, if one of them is running 120Hz non-LightBoost, and the other is running 120Hz LightBoost. Let's troubleshoot what seems to be going on. Also, did you calibrate your LightBoost via nVidia Control Panel; and maybe one of the emulators is overriding this calibration?

Can you take direct screen captures; to determine what color palettes are in use for MAME, and in use for UAE? It's possible that the UAE uses a more subdued color palette, that suffers more greatly?

Can you also capture direct PNG or BMP screen captures (no camera; just direct framebuffer captures) of both UAE and MAME? That way I can see if there's pixel-level or palette-level effects that's interacting with the LCD inversion pattern. I definitely recognize the hardware LCD inversion pattern (1x2 vertically-tall checkerboard pixel pattern is the world's most common LCD inversion pattern) so there seems some form of interaction occuring; what we need to find out is what software behavior is causing this interaction to amplify the LCD hardware inversion artifact; why it's good in MAME but worse in UAE.

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by mdrejhon

Very interesting observations. Could it be the different color palettes in use? LightBoost can affect that in unexpected ways. Also, can you verify that LightBoost is indeed enabled in both situations?

Start MAME strobe. Open monitor's OSD. Does the monitor menu have an enabled "LightBoost" setting?
Also disable HLSL and all filters; observe the effects.

Start UAE strobe. Open monitor's OSD. Does the monitor menu have an enabled "LightBoost" setting?.

In both case same screen parametter in my memory (120hz-lightboost level full)

i will verify this evening (i'am not at home)

Originally Posted by mdrejhon

It might be, if one of them is running 120Hz non-LightBoost, and the other is running 120Hz LightBoost. Let's troubleshoot what seems to be going on. Also, did you calibrate your LightBoost via nVidia Control Panel; and maybe one of the emulators is overriding this calibration?
.

i don"t know lightboost can be calibrate

where is option in nvidia panel control? (not at home....)

Originally Posted by mdrejhon

Can you take direct screen captures; to determine what color palettes are in use for MAME, and in use for UAE? It's possible that the UAE uses a more subdued color palette, that suffers more greatly?
Can you also capture direct PNG or BMP screen captures (no camera; just direct framebuffer captures) of both UAE and MAME? That way I can see if there's pixel-level or palette-level effects that's interacting with the LCD inversion pattern. .

already done on winuae=>black screen (of course) or good picture
=>so i think problem is during display of frames by monitor

to verify but i am pretty sure

Originally Posted by mdrejhon

I definitely recognize the hardware LCD inversion pattern (1x2 vertically-tall checkerboard pixel pattern is the world's most common LCD inversion pattern) so there seems some form of interaction occuring; what we need to find out is what software behavior is causing this interaction to amplify the LCD hardware inversion artifact; why it's good in MAME but worse in UAE.

i am not sure to have all understand because i am never see before LCD inversion pattern

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by mdrejhon

1. The darkening is normal; you're getting reduced brightness either way with black frame insertion.
"

yes, but darkning must be similar in strobe-mode to normal 3d vision mode +3d glasses (of course if lightboost is activated and it seems to be the case)

indeed in 3d vision mode + 3d glasses, each eye see only 60 frames per seconds other 60 frames are similar to black screen insersion because the glasses alternately darken.

but in fact winuae-strobe is more dark than 3d vision mode

and mame-strobe has a similar brightness than 3d vision mode.

[CFou!]

ps: i am not VG278H but new VG278HE which can display rates of 144hz

so behavior of monitor can be a bit different than VG278H

but it can fix because mame-strobe works fine


see here for some constated differences:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1339384/z...like-480hz/250

here interesting informations
http://www.techmind.org/lcd/

[Toni Wilen]

http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip now also implements "legacy" D3D vsync 100Hz+ black frame insertion and possibly directdraw too (difficult to test, for some reason Windows 8 + WinUAE full screen DirectDraw = extreme slowdown)

[CFou!]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip now also implements "legacy" D3D vsync 100Hz+ black frame insertion and possibly directdraw too (difficult to test, for some reason Windows 8 + WinUAE full screen DirectDraw = extreme slowdown)

thanks i will test this evening

for more detail see joined picture comparaison of the same zoom of BC kid's eye:


looks some pixels seems not to the good place!!!!!!
=>if the pixels were aligned to the right place, screen would be less dark


in top:
winuae+strobe

bottom:
wiunae+3dvision glasses

remark:for a really equivalent comparaison, i will try to photograph screen behind 3d glasses.... (and not directly)