KarlosTKG now on GitHub

[abu_the_monkey]

sorry (I was thinking of ab3d1), yes they are loaded via the test.lnk file, but still I don't think the names marry up with the .iff files.

[abu_the_monkey]

Originally Posted by Karlos

I just replayed the original two levels and realised I'd changed more than I thought.

yes you did

I still have fond memories of the original from back in the day, but, was blown away by your mod when you were kind enough to give me a copy what must be nearly a decade (if not more) ago.
I do not know how you had the patience to work with those editors (even the later leved).

[Karlos]

LevelEd 303 isn't so bad. Kicks out a wicked acid bassline too. Oh wait, that's the TB303 I don't have.

My memory isn't of a concerted effort to redo it all, more a long running tinkering that must've added up. I'd played the modded version of docking ring for so long I'd totally forgotten how it looked before.

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by abu_the_monkey

sorry (I was thinking of ab3d1), yes they are loaded via the test.lnk file, but still I don't think the names marry up with the .iff files.

No that's right. Some of the names are a mystery. Ashnarg? For a beholder class plama launching floating bag with a pair of buff arms grafted on. Weird.

[abu_the_monkey]

Originally Posted by Karlos

LevelEd 303 isn't so bad. Kicks out a wicked acid bassline too. Oh wait, that's the TB303 I don't have.

My memory isn't of a concerted effort to redo it all, more a long running tinkering that must've added up. I'd played the modded version of docking ring for so long I'd totally forgotten how it looked before.

one of the thing that I loved in your mod (other than the obvious graphical and game play improvements) was the transition from the end of one level to the next, at the end of level A you can see the start of level B. these little things make it all a much better experience.

[abu_the_monkey]

I seem to remember some rules to defining 'zones' as you had to start from the top,left point and go in a clockwise direction which I constantly fell foul of

[Karlos]

Yeah, that was intentional. Though If you look carefully, the floor and ceiling textures are the wrong orientation. The exit of level A is actually at right angles to the start of level B, but there's no orientation control for floor/ceiling textures.
.

[abu_the_monkey]

I have never noticed that. now I am going to have to check

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by abu_the_monkey

I seem to remember some rules to defining 'zones' as you had to start from the top,left point and go in a clockwise direction which I constantly fell foul of

It's basically they the points are all defined clockwise. Or anticlockwise. One of the two. I think the choice of starting point was actually less important.

[abu_the_monkey]

I seem to remember I would often end up with a 'hall of mirrors' effect when trying to do anything complex. much to my frustration

[Karlos]

Sounds like you inadvertently invented the backrooms before they were a thing. Without using a Doom style BSP to guarantee convex spaces that have strictly defined visibility, it was always going to be trickier. Making rooms out of strictly convex zones was only one thing. Another was ensuring that a zone is only visible once from any other zone. That's both harder to explain and achieve.

[abu_the_monkey]

sounds like I didn't read and understand the rather limited documentation. no change there then

[Karlos]

I think the vector editor was the most difficult. Yet it had not only some of the best documentation and even a tutorial. It just took time to get models done. I actually wanted to recreate all the aliens as models, or at least the robotic ones. I started by tweaking the shotgun, then redid the grenade launcher. You can't really see it at normal framerates now but the grenade clip (not present on the original) actually rotates as it recoils. Then I decided to make a minigun. I remember that taking bloody ages! I reused the shotgun barrels, rocket launcher handle but upside down for the trigger. Around the same time I started making all the pickups models as well.

There was no real master plan beyond improve the existing levels, create a set of deathmatch levels and eventually redo the first game.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Karlos

8<—————

There was no real master plan beyond improve the existing levels, create a set of deathmatch levels and eventually redo the first game.

Now thats interesting
In theory it should be possible to convert the old AB3d1 maps to whatever new format that was invented for TKG but since no one ever did that Im guessing theres more to it.

[abu_the_monkey]

I guess it would be a case of figuring out the offsets in the level binaries (for ab3d1) for the various components that make up the level and add a loader for the ab3d1 level format to TKG or create a tool that reads in the ab3d1 level binaries and spits it out formatted for TKG. John Grivin already figured out the offsets for the level geometry many years ago when building tools for Qbreed, which reads in ab3d1 levels and outputs Quake1 maps minus keys, enemies, pickups, etc.

[abu_the_monkey]

this is what I found in with the Qbreed tools if anyone fancies a crack.

0	PLAYERSTARTX	(w)
2	PLAYERSTARTZ	(w)
4	PLAYERSTARTZONE (w)
6	NUM CONTOL PTS	(w)
8	NUM POINTS	(w)
10	NUM ZONES	(w)
12	NUM FLOORLINES	(w)
14	NUM OBJECT PTS	(w)
16	PTR TO POINTS	(l)
20	PTR TO FLOORLINES (l)
24	PTR TO OBJECTS	(l)
28	PTR TO PLAYERSHOTS (l)
32	PTR TO ENEMYSHOTS (l)
36	PTR TO OBJECTPTS (L)
40	PTR TO PLR1_OBJ (L)
44	PTR TO PLR2_OBJ (L)

	CONTROL POINTS... (w*2)

	OBJECT PTS (lw*2)

	OBJECT DATA (64bytes each)
	-1 (w)

	Points (w*2)

	FloorLines (32 bytes each)
	
	***********************
	ZoneBorders (ends in -1)
	ZoneDat:
		numzone (w)
		floorheight (L)
		roofheight (l)
		zb (w) ?
		cpt (w)
		0 (l)
		Offset to borders(w)
			from zonedat
		Offset to points(w)
			from zonedat
		DrawBackDrop(w)
	
	(ZoneGraphNumber,clip addr (w)
	CORD (l))
	-1 (l) at end of list.
	Then list of points (w)
	terminated with -1
	
	***********************
	
GRAPHICS FILE FORMAT:

0 Pointer to doors (l)
4 pointer to lifts (l)
8 pointer to switches (l)
12 pointer to zone graph offsets

Offsets to zonedata from start of level
data (already filled in) (l)

Offsets to zone graph data from start
of this file (already filled in)

Zone Graph data
(starts with zone number)

Door Data:
	Bottom,top,currheight,dir (w)
	Pointer to roof (l)
	number of zone (w)
 	conditions (l)
 	
 	***
 	wall number
 	pointer to wall graph
 	graphic
 	***
 
 LiftData:
 	Bottom,top,currheight,dir (w)
	Pointer to roof (l)
	number of zone (w)
 	conditions (l)
 	
 	***
 	wall number
 	pointer to wall graph
 	graphic
 	***

SwitchData:
	NUM ZONE (w)
	First point (w)
	Ptr to graphics (l)
	status (l)

hope you don't mind John

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by abu_the_monkey

this is what I found in with the Qbreed tools if anyone fancies a crack.

0PLAYERSTARTX(w)
2PLAYERSTARTZ(w)
4PLAYERSTARTZONE (w)
6NUM CONTOL PTS(w)
8NUM POINTS(w)
10NUM ZONES(w)
12NUM FLOORLINES(w)
14NUM OBJECT PTS(w)
16PTR TO POINTS(l)
20PTR TO FLOORLINES (l)
24PTR TO OBJECTS(l)
28PTR TO PLAYERSHOTS (l)
32PTR TO ENEMYSHOTS (l)
36PTR TO OBJECTPTS (L)
40PTR TO PLR1_OBJ (L)
44PTR TO PLR2_OBJ (L)

CONTROL POINTS... (w*2)

OBJECT PTS (lw*2)

OBJECT DATA (64bytes each)
-1 (w)

Points (w*2)

FloorLines (32 bytes each)

***********************
ZoneBorders (ends in -1)
ZoneDat:
numzone (w)
floorheight (L)
roofheight (l)
zb (w) ?
cpt (w)
0 (l)
Offset to borders(w)
from zonedat
Offset to points(w)
from zonedat
DrawBackDrop(w)

(ZoneGraphNumber,clip addr (w)
CORD (l))
-1 (l) at end of list.
Then list of points (w)
terminated with -1

***********************

GRAPHICS FILE FORMAT:

0 Pointer to doors (l)
4 pointer to lifts (l)
8 pointer to switches (l)
12 pointer to zone graph offsets

Offsets to zonedata from start of level
data (already filled in) (l)

Offsets to zone graph data from start
of this file (already filled in)

Zone Graph data
(starts with zone number)

Door Data:
Bottom,top,currheight,dir (w)
Pointer to roof (l)
number of zone (w)
 conditions (l)
 
 ***
 wall number
 pointer to wall graph
 graphic
 ***
 
 LiftData:
 Bottom,top,currheight,dir (w)
Pointer to roof (l)
number of zone (w)
 conditions (l)
 
 ***
 wall number
 pointer to wall graph
 graphic
 ***

SwitchData:
NUM ZONE (w)
First point (w)
Ptr to graphics (l)
status (l)

hope you don't mind John

I reached out to John years ago asking for those tools and he generously shared his work.

[Karlos]

I think the best thing to create at this point is a set of developer levels so that engine changes and fixes can be tested.

[abu_the_monkey]

As far as for pippers TKG rework goes I couldn't agree more. He has asked for this already but I was reluctant to volunteer as my experience with the level editor was one of frustrations. but that shouldn't stop someone having a go at writing a tool to convert ab3d1 levels to something TKG can load.

[eXeler0]

Dream scenario would be to use something like Trenchbroom for the map creation (saved in e.g) quake format then have a tool that does the reverse compared to Johns tools. i.e. converts it to a ab3d2. friendly format (of course the mapper would need to respect certain limitations).