Poll: What KS would you prefer in a Vampire... Aros or KS3.1 - Page 3

TenLeftFingers · 14 February 2016, 01:39

I hadn't considered the license holders of ks3.x.. I think I've changed my mind about wanting to invest in that. Hopefully an option with no KS will be available also.

wawa · 14 February 2016, 02:24

@zetr0

community may have agreed on 3.x as base, but it doesnt mean, that there are any updates in sight, except hacks and patches applied by the community on otherwise claimed or copyrighted material. every time from the beginning, without the sources, as it has been neccessary for years to pass. it wont change, even on very inconvenient terms. the rest is for you to dreem of, so go safe to stasis again, thats the best to be done along with this philosophy.

kipper2k · 14 February 2016, 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wawa

@zetr0

community may have agreed on 3.x as base, but it doesnt mean, that there are any updates in sight, except hacks and patches applied by the community on otherwise claimed or copyrighted material. every time from the beginning, without the sources, as it has been neccessary for years to pass. it wont change, even on very inconvenient terms. the rest is for you to dreem of, so go safe to stasis again, thats the best to be done along with this philosophy.

Isn't the Amiga all about hacks from individuals, There is a solid base with 3.1. and the average user uses 3.1, aros is still a WIP and is only updated by a few people in their spare time

wawa · 14 February 2016, 10:25

3.x is of course a solid base, in no way i want to deny this option as its currently the best one for a regular user.

but if we are talking of improving the system, there are two ways:
1. an individual noncooperative approach, disassembling particular parts of the code and reassembling them or rewriting these parts. this results in a number of incompatible concurrent solutions for every such problem, much more work in general and eventually difficulties in licensing, as it likely happens in a legal grey zone. as result, this as a whole can be actually much more considered unstable work in progress.

2. an appoach where people contribute towards common good without dubled and tripled parallel efforts. with available and legally secure c sources. this is aros, and while being work in progress, there is a stable reference, namely existing amiga software. also if more people were contributing towards the genuine amiga as a platform for aros, we would have been much further with this today. dont expect everything to be served to you beforehand. this doesnt even work very well with closed source amiga ng options, like os4, as you may observe.

im not trying to impose either way on anyone, but in order to make the right choice one needs to clearly see this. but also i think vampire serves well as example of a coopreative effort (of a few people), and work in progress, so i wonder how can this be considered bad.

Zetr0 · 14 February 2016, 11:59

@Kipps

If you can get a 3.1 License my good fellow - plumb for it - have a chat with some fellow luminaries and get a community friendly build of 3.9 together (if the 3.1 license allows you to modify it for embedded hardware).

Its a selling point for the product and you can additional value to it - for essentially £130 (under the gold core) the user gets

100MHz + 060 processing speeds
SAGA Graphics Card (with the ability to play AGA games on non AGA Amiga)
16bit sound card (if I read that right)
Fast SD Card Mass Storage
Kick Start 3.9

yeah thats an epic win buddy.... thats what I would plumb (pay good money) for =D

14 February 2016, 13:48

Why include anything? Why not just have an interface to load multiple rom images from your main win/lnx/osx machine as you see fit and select which to use at boot?

dirkies · 14 February 2016, 13:50

to esc: because it seems you can not just load a standard KS imagine into it, it needs some hardware related patches.

Amiga1992 · 14 February 2016, 17:51

But why can't these patches be applied to your own ROM and then uploaded to the Vampire on first boot?
I think that'd be the best way to do it. Ship the unit with AROS and have a software to copy, patch and upload your computer's ROM to it the first time you boot it.

Seriously, let's NOT give a dime to those vultures that hold the license for Kickstarts. All the Amigas that will be hosting Vampires have ROMs which we're entitled to use.

Zetr0 · 14 February 2016, 18:03

@Akira

I do comprehend your frustration in this issue, it is difficult to be both productive and pragmatic with ones sense of ethos. In regards to Copyright, all to often it belongs to the one with the most money spent on law - when faced with this (at times may feel like an injustice) why risk a lawsuit when a few bucks latter not only are you (as the provide) legally protect but also sport a better product?

Sadly for our little community the legal owners of the copyright to the KickROM are hanging on to it for dear life - thats up to them, they paid for it as far as all legal precedent states.

I wouldn't want to see a crippled product (with a less compatible Kickstart Firmware) that at this moment is a such a momentous game changer for the Amiga Community - IMHO its worth just sucking it up and moving on with the best possible solution for the end user which is us.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a free Kickstart Firmware such as AROS ROMS - but these are not ready for main-stream replacement... soon though... and at that point it would well be a different story.

dirkies · 14 February 2016, 18:26

agree with Zetr0, we'll have to cough up some extra euros for the copyright vultures, but at least we'll have a rock solid product.

Makes me think a bit like trying to find a laptop in a shop without Windows pre-installed to avoid the M$ fee. Maybe you'll find one but with crap hardware configuration....
In the end you'll just buy one with Windows installed on it, even if you're wiping it asa you fire it up... because the laptop hardware argument wins hands down over the M$ fee you have to pay for it.

Amiga1992 · 14 February 2016, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

I wouldn't want to see a crippled product (with a less compatible Kickstart Firmware)

But you wouldn't get a crippled product.
As I said, my proposed solution, if possible, is shipment with AROS but later acquiring of the original KS rom from YOUR OWN COMPUTER that ALREADY HAS IT to patch and use on the Vampire.
Also if kipper is asking "what would you prefer", it also is hinting, I think, at the possibility that shipping with AROS does not mean in ANY way the product would be crippled. I trust these people's judgement, they are making a fantastic product.

Let's not succumb to this blackmail of licensing, they're holding Kickstart up for ransom and we are in NO WAY obligated to cough up for it, especially while owning machines that already have a fully legal copy of the software! We gotta stop feeding the evil hand and this is a great opportunity. There's NO reason to have an EXTRA copy of KS in one Amiga.

Cylon · 14 February 2016, 19:26

Kick 3.1 with fixes, call it 3.9 or whatever.

gulliver · 14 February 2016, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira

There's NO reason to have an EXTRA copy of KS in one Amiga.

This is certainly something that needs to be addressed.

I remember back in the nineties, when MacroSystem created the DraCo, they needed a heavy customized kickstart for it to work. They solved this issue by including a customly designed command "DraCoSetPatch", that was the first line in the startup-sequence, and what it did was to patch an otherwise original CBM kickstart to make it work under their non-custom chip based DraCo.

BTW, I have two DraCos at home, and I can truly say this aproach works without issues.

Amiga1992 · 14 February 2016, 19:37

That sounds exactly like what I think we should have with the Vampire.

I think the main issue here would be that most A600s have KS2.04 in them and not 3.1. But this could be an issue the USER should sort out and not Vampire Team's responsibility.

happymondays · 14 February 2016, 20:27

I guess the issue is the same for A500s. I myself have an A500 with 1.3 and do not plan to buy a 3.1 kickstart, but I still want to use the Vampire 500.

Amiga1992 · 15 February 2016, 00:10

You can upgrade to 3.1 if you want to use it. I think it'd be a fair request to make of the user.
And if you don't want to, AROS might work just fine for you. Who knows.

zharn · 15 February 2016, 06:42

3.1

eXeler0 · 15 February 2016, 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by happymondays

I guess the issue is the same for A500s. I myself have an A500 with 1.3 and do not plan to buy a 3.1 kickstart, but I still want to use the Vampire 500.

And in what scenario is it sane to have 100MHz 060 speeds in an A500 yet clinging on to ks1.3? The ancient stuff that requires 1.3 will hardly benefit from 060 speeds? ;-) Maybe the Zeus IS the better option for you?

happymondays · 15 February 2016, 10:27

Translating my previous post: I vote for 3.1 to be included on V500, so that I won't need to buy an extra.
I have no problems with AROS myself, though. AROS-based IndieGO! has just been pledged with 985% on Kickstarter and that might help to get it into (some sort of) the limelight.

Samurai_Crow · 15 February 2016, 12:54

Keep in mind that Aros' biggest problem is that the GCC backend generates terrible code for 68k. Once a backend for the Apollo gold core is made, the Vampire 2 will fly!

Besides, Cloanto licensed Kickstart ROM 3.1 for 2 bucks a board. It is addressed.

14 February 2016, 11:59	#45
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@Kipps If you can get a 3.1 License my good fellow - plumb for it - have a chat with some fellow luminaries and get a community friendly build of 3.9 together (if the 3.1 license allows you to modify it for embedded hardware). Its a selling point for the product and you can additional value to it - for essentially £130 (under the gold core) the user gets 100MHz + 060 processing speeds SAGA Graphics Card (with the ability to play AGA games on non AGA Amiga) 16bit sound card (if I read that right) Fast SD Card Mass Storage Kick Start 3.9 yeah thats an epic win buddy.... thats what I would plumb (pay good money) for =D

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14 February 2016, 01:39	#41
TenLeftFingers Registered User Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 800	I hadn't considered the license holders of ks3.x.. I think I've changed my mind about wanting to invest in that. Hopefully an option with no KS will be available also.

14 February 2016, 02:24	#42
wawa Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: berlin/germany Posts: 1,054	@zetr0 community may have agreed on 3.x as base, but it doesnt mean, that there are any updates in sight, except hacks and patches applied by the community on otherwise claimed or copyrighted material. every time from the beginning, without the sources, as it has been neccessary for years to pass. it wont change, even on very inconvenient terms. the rest is for you to dreem of, so go safe to stasis again, thats the best to be done along with this philosophy.

14 February 2016, 10:25	#44
wawa Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: berlin/germany Posts: 1,054	3.x is of course a solid base, in no way i want to deny this option as its currently the best one for a regular user. but if we are talking of improving the system, there are two ways: 1. an individual noncooperative approach, disassembling particular parts of the code and reassembling them or rewriting these parts. this results in a number of incompatible concurrent solutions for every such problem, much more work in general and eventually difficulties in licensing, as it likely happens in a legal grey zone. as result, this as a whole can be actually much more considered unstable work in progress. 2. an appoach where people contribute towards common good without dubled and tripled parallel efforts. with available and legally secure c sources. this is aros, and while being work in progress, there is a stable reference, namely existing amiga software. also if more people were contributing towards the genuine amiga as a platform for aros, we would have been much further with this today. dont expect everything to be served to you beforehand. this doesnt even work very well with closed source amiga ng options, like os4, as you may observe. im not trying to impose either way on anyone, but in order to make the right choice one needs to clearly see this. but also i think vampire serves well as example of a coopreative effort (of a few people), and work in progress, so i wonder how can this be considered bad.

14 February 2016, 13:48	#46
esc Posts: n/a	Why include anything? Why not just have an interface to load multiple rom images from your main win/lnx/osx machine as you see fit and select which to use at boot?

14 February 2016, 13:50	#47
dirkies Zone Friend Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Belgium Age: 51 Posts: 1,296	to esc: because it seems you can not just load a standard KS imagine into it, it needs some hardware related patches.

14 February 2016, 17:51	#48
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,645	But why can't these patches be applied to your own ROM and then uploaded to the Vampire on first boot? I think that'd be the best way to do it. Ship the unit with AROS and have a software to copy, patch and upload your computer's ROM to it the first time you boot it. Seriously, let's NOT give a dime to those vultures that hold the license for Kickstarts. All the Amigas that will be hosting Vampires have ROMs which we're entitled to use.

14 February 2016, 18:03	#49
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@Akira I do comprehend your frustration in this issue, it is difficult to be both productive and pragmatic with ones sense of ethos. In regards to Copyright, all to often it belongs to the one with the most money spent on law - when faced with this (at times may feel like an injustice) why risk a lawsuit when a few bucks latter not only are you (as the provide) legally protect but also sport a better product? Sadly for our little community the legal owners of the copyright to the KickROM are hanging on to it for dear life - thats up to them, they paid for it as far as all legal precedent states. I wouldn't want to see a crippled product (with a less compatible Kickstart Firmware) that at this moment is a such a momentous game changer for the Amiga Community - IMHO its worth just sucking it up and moving on with the best possible solution for the end user which is us. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a free Kickstart Firmware such as AROS ROMS - but these are not ready for main-stream replacement... soon though... and at that point it would well be a different story.

14 February 2016, 18:26	#50
dirkies Zone Friend Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Belgium Age: 51 Posts: 1,296	agree with Zetr0, we'll have to cough up some extra euros for the copyright vultures, but at least we'll have a rock solid product. Makes me think a bit like trying to find a laptop in a shop without Windows pre-installed to avoid the M$ fee. Maybe you'll find one but with crap hardware configuration.... In the end you'll just buy one with Windows installed on it, even if you're wiping it asa you fire it up... because the laptop hardware argument wins hands down over the M$ fee you have to pay for it.

14 February 2016, 19:26	#52
Cylon Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Europe Posts: 471	Kick 3.1 with fixes, call it 3.9 or whatever.

14 February 2016, 19:37	#54
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,645	That sounds exactly like what I think we should have with the Vampire. I think the main issue here would be that most A600s have KS2.04 in them and not 3.1. But this could be an issue the USER should sort out and not Vampire Team's responsibility.

14 February 2016, 20:27	#55
happymondays Registered User Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Szeged Posts: 219	I guess the issue is the same for A500s. I myself have an A500 with 1.3 and do not plan to buy a 3.1 kickstart, but I still want to use the Vampire 500.

15 February 2016, 00:10	#56
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,645	You can upgrade to 3.1 if you want to use it. I think it'd be a fair request to make of the user. And if you don't want to, AROS might work just fine for you. Who knows.

15 February 2016, 06:42	#57
zharn Registered User Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Brisbane Australia Posts: 150	3.1

15 February 2016, 10:27	#59
happymondays Registered User Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Szeged Posts: 219	Translating my previous post: I vote for 3.1 to be included on V500, so that I won't need to buy an extra. I have no problems with AROS myself, though. AROS-based IndieGO! has just been pledged with 985% on Kickstarter and that might help to get it into (some sort of) the limelight.

15 February 2016, 12:54	#60
Samurai_Crow Total Chaos forever! Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Waterville, MN, USA Age: 49 Posts: 2,187	Keep in mind that Aros' biggest problem is that the GCC backend generates terrible code for 68k. Once a backend for the Apollo gold core is made, the Vampire 2 will fly! Besides, Cloanto licensed Kickstart ROM 3.1 for 2 bucks a board. It is addressed.

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