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Old 28 November 2018, 11:08   #161
britelite
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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
Not sure where you are getting this from your head, i certainly haven’t said anything of that nature, on the contrary, i’m one of the few actually giving reasons why its not a crap machine, but heyho!
So you mean telling people not agreeing with you to "grow up" is perfectly okay?
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Old 28 November 2018, 11:12   #162
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I have to admit I am a little surprised and saddened by some of the comments over the last 2 pages. The CD32 was a disappointment and I openly admit I was disappointed that christmas morning when I powered it up put in a game and thought this A1200 sitting right beside it can do this exactly the same so wtf santa.

But to say its crap is a bit much. The joypad get a lot of hate but other than the questionable d-pad I find the rest of it fine. Its comfortable in the hand and the buttons feel fine. The build quality isn't that bad really. I still have my original CD32 and the only build issue I've had is the lid at the spring has cracked, its 24 years old FFS so I let that one slide.

Up until the last 3-4 years the CD32 would of been without doubt the poor console cousin to the computers but in the last few years the work the community has put into the console with the hardware but moreso the software compilation, new releases, patched games with multi button support, cd audio etc etc has put this platform for me to a point were I think some people should really sit up a bit rather then just state its crap.

But, meh, each to their own. I've got a CD32, 2 A500s and an A1200. The A500s don't get a look in cause they are CRAP. I can't easily expand them and the vast majority of my original disks have died over the years turning my A500s into nothing just fancy door stops. They are crap crap crap crap crap. Crappy crap. Crappity crap crap.

How that for playground antics. I'm away to play my CD32.
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Old 28 November 2018, 11:15   #163
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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
If you define telling people to ‘grow-up’ is naming calling, then this PC (no pun intended) world is getting worse.
I agree that "name calling" is maybe the wrong term, but it is pretty much a pot calling the kettle black
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Old 28 November 2018, 12:18   #164
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Sorry fans for calling it crap. I should've used another word, is superfluous a better fitment ?

Emotions aside try to take an objective look. You have to regard it in context with the market when they debuted ! Not from today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen M
The A500s don't get a look in cause they are CRAP. I can't easily expand them and the vast majority of my original disks have died over the years turning my A500s into nothing just fancy door stops.
Back then it was THE gaming machine around here. GFX-editing and word processing wasn't my cup of tea on it, but it was at least possible. PC was lightyears inferior in every field, and I rarely knew any Atari ST owners. A comparison to today's standards doesn't make sense and misses the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amigajay"
they won‘t admit their own purchase was no better, loads of games had backwards compatibily problems and you couldn’t play all the games were had before, there was only 100 ish AGA disk games and most of those were on OCS too, you were stuck with the slow and single DD drive again!
Compatibility was NEVER an issue for me with "Degrader" and "TUDE". And for the 1% games where "Degrader" and "TUDE" didn't suffice you could put in a cheap hardware kickstart switch. I didn't need a HD install for 1- or 2-disk games. And most multi-disk games (more than 2 disks) I owned back then were indeed hd installable.
And again, CD32 games could be played without problems, complete controller mapping worked.
Also, you are talking mostly about games. But you don't seem to realize that there are alot of people who didn't buy an Amiga just because of games, but also to use it as office computer. Consoles didn't offer hat. And A2000 and A4000 were very competitive against Apple and PC when they had their market debuts.
A2000 and A4000 were even used alot back then professionally. You could see it in office, it had been used in film industry and tv stations (video toaster).
They were successfull.
BTW: My first PC had 133MHz. Until then I used my Amiga 4000 for everything. So yes, my A4000 was a very good purchase.


Again, enter the CD32 in 1993 and see it from a buyer's context back then.
No keyboard, no harddisk, no diskdrive, no printerport without upgrading. It wasn't meant for professional use, you couldn't even use it as home computer without upgrading and expanding. So it couldn't wake interest in that market. Which is OK, as it was clearly placed as gaming console.
But then you already had SNES and Megadrive. Faster loading times, better games catalogue. There were no games available to convince a potential buyer to buy it over a SNES or Megadrive. I honestly knew NO-ONE back then owning a CD32. People played SNES, Megadrive, or VGA games on PC. DOOM was released in 1993.

And then, again, take a look at the CD32. See what was available on other systems. It never stood a chance. It was a completely wrong development back then, sorry.

Last edited by Konrad; 28 November 2018 at 13:04.
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Old 28 November 2018, 13:17   #165
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Looking at the CD32 in its contemporary context it's a bit like the Amiga 500 (yes I know that's OCS) vis a vis the CD32, and the Mega Drive (Genesis) vis a vis the Mega CD (Sega CD) at the same time period....

Whilst the Mega CD did have the odd good game (Lunar Silver Star Story and Eternal Blue, and Snatcher) for example, there were little compelling reasons to go out and get one even though loads of us had Mega Drives, so it kinda flopped, the price was also a consideration of course.

The CD32 sort of had the same thing going on, seemed exciting because hey it's 32bit and CD, but largely compared to the Amiga 500 (or 1200 some people would have only had for a few months when the CD32 came out) there was no major reason to rush out and get one, Zool 2, James Pond 2 Robocod, Putty etc. were all playable on an A500 that many people already had.

That's how so many of my friends saw it at school back at that time. Sure we all thought CD based consoles were amazing, but there again we could only go on what monthly magazines said and staring at the Argos catalogue for hours on end daydreaming.

Assuming Commodore wasn't about to go bust by late 1993 (which they were and only staved off bankruptcy then due to agreeing new terms with creditors) the CD32 could have competed better if there were AGA games to really take advantage of its hardware on release. If the CD32 had games like Gunstar Heroes, Final Fantasy VI, Secret of Mana, Earthworm Jim etc. with compelling extra content like CD quality soundtracks, cut scene videos with epic games and epic gameplay - sure that could have done well into 1995 and kept the Amiga's head above the water, but that Hombre "CD64" would have been needed by late 1995 to go toe to toe with Playstation. The CD32 wouldn't have needed amazing 3D games, just kick ass 2D games.

Instead we got a machine pushed out necessarily early to try and keep Commodore afloat, bundled with Diggers and Oscar, and Chaos Engine - all of which you could play on an Amiga 500 - so why again would you buy a CD32? Chaos Engine is a fantastic game but most Amiga owners already had it and it was in so many compilation bundles by the time the CD32 was launched.

So many kids at my school, myself included said exactly that and instead supplemented their Amigas with Mega Drives or Super Nintendos (which is what I did) by late 1993/early 94.

It would have also needed that almighty arsehole Medhi Ali shown the door, it's interesting reading contemporary magazines, one column in Amiga Format recounts Medhi aggressively confronting developers at a conference and David Pleasance not knowing where to look... So culturally at Commodore they would have had to change too.

There were signs of what the CD32 and AGA could pull off with games like Flink and Shadow Fighter but precious little else, but with a decent software library that pulled it above the A500, it could have done a bit better.

And yes absolutely the Amiga was a decent home computer as well as a games machine but sadly very few of those at school made use of that side of things, and I only did out of curiosity which turned into what I ended up using the Amiga mostly for.
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Old 28 November 2018, 13:27   #166
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Yes the A500 was a gaming juggernaut of its time and Amiga gaming slowly faded out being overtook by Sega and Nintendo and the CD32 suffers this same fate.

At least my CD32 still plays its straight A500 floppy to CD ports fine whereas my original floppy discs have all died.

Just to pick up on some of the other points.

- I never had any compatibility issues either with my A1200. The incompatible games must be a very small % of the library.

- We are talking about games because the CD32 is a console. It is not a computer. You can't do computer tasks on a PS4 so why would a CD32 do it.

- A2000 and A4000 are fantastic computers, I still lust after one but they were and are hugely expensive so why would a kid looking to play games get a computer when this cheap console ticks all the boxes.

- CD32 no hard disk (console don't need it, first console to ship with a HDD is the xbox several years alter), no keyboard (console doesn't need a keyboard, its got a multi button joypad), no disc drive (CDs?), no printer port (why does a console need a printer, what games are going to use a printer).

You go on to say you couldn't use it for professional or computer use. Why on gods green earth would you buy a console for computer use. Even today would you buy a PS4 or a laptop to type a letter on?

Yes there was the Sega and Nintendo consoles but it was the 90s everyone and their granny had a foot in the console market so why not Commodore too.

Doom might of been released in 93 but we didn't get a decent console port until late 94 on the Jag or late 95 on the Playstation.

Your last point is a good one and was the CD32 blessing and yet its hindrance. It had a vast library of games to call upon but all those games were dated. It just didn't get enough new development. Those few games that did come are fantastic but not enough to sell and support a console among the hordes of 80s games straight ported.
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Old 28 November 2018, 13:35   #167
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I think the problem is these days people seem to see everything as binary with no middle ground. When I look through the CD32 games catalogue I see some pretty awesome games:

Alien Breed
Cannon Fodder
Chaos Engine
International Karate +
Jaguar XJ220
Jungle Strike
Lotus Trilogy
Nigel Mansell's WC
Sensible Soccer
Super Skidmarks
Speedball 2
Syndicate
Theme Park
Worms

None of those were even reviewed by AVGN. I mean he also criticised it based on that one beat em up arguing that other platforms had Street Fighter but Super Street Fighter II Turbo was also apparently released on the CD32.

Yeah the CD32 was expensive compared to MegaDrive/SNES but it had a CD-ROM which was revolutionary at the time, how much money could be saved by not having to buy a separate (music) CD player? how much would Mega Drive+Mega CD cost? Jaguar+CD expansion? just being able to play audio CD's was a big selling point at that time.

So my stance is that although CD32 probably wasn't amazing I doubt it was as bad as AVGN has made out, he has either deliberately picked many of the poorest games to suit his narrative of hyperbolically criticising something or he has reviewed it from a position of ignorance in not seeking out the best games it had to offer.
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Old 28 November 2018, 13:38   #168
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I'll ignore the last 2 pages of people arguing, but here my more refined explanation about my negative feelings toward the CD32 when it came out.

First of all, at the time I first encountered a CD32 in a game store I already had an A1200 with a Blizzard 1220 (28MHz 020 + 4MB FastRam) + a Hard Drive, (obviously).
My favourite games at the time were stuff like Frontier, Syndicate, Gunship 2000.
This was before the internet era so I got my news from mags such as Edge, Amiga Format etc.. So there was already buzz about Atari's next console (Jaguar), 3do, Sega 32x etc.. it was clear to me at that point that an unexpanded 1200 would from a technological standpoint have no chance against what was to come.
So when I saw that CD32 in the store, they had one running Microcosm and the other one running Gunship 2000. Microcosm looked impressive at first sight, but after 3 minutes of playing i realized this was a pretty boring "rail-shooter" and that first encounter with the controller.. hmm.. . And then I saw the choppy framerate in GS2000. Ouch. Then I started reading up more about the specs..
ok the same crappy 020 that I so desperately wanted to escape and made me buy the Blizzard 1220.. so how are we supposed to have a nice next gen gaming experience on this thing.. hmm.. not gonna see Doom on this thing, that thing was obvious..
tiiiny 1k for save games, yes.. tiny even back then..
no RGB out..
FMV module sounded "futuristic" but they didn't have one on display yet.
A bunch of other games I already owned on the A1200? Ok..
No new exclusives that would make you wanna have this thing.. Microcosm clearly didn't cut it.. (Games like talkie version of Simon the sorcerer were nice of course but that was later)

So the very same day I first encountered it in real life, I knew I was not looking at the future of gaming.
This felt marginally better than the stupid C64GS.
Then time went by and Commodore went bankrupt and I sort of realized that the CD32 was just a last desperate attempt to generate some much needed cash.. And the point was never to build a long term solution, a console that would stand the test of time, but rather do a least possible R&D effort to put something out on the market that could generate some profit so we can live another day...

Dave Haynie once said that he thought the CD32 was a "well engineered" product, and I'm sure that from a certian point of view, it was.. But then they already had the A1200 mobo to work from and basically do a cost reduced version, slap a CD drive on it an tadaaa.. New game console..
If they reeeally wanted this thing to stay competitive beyond the brief moment of dominance over Sega Megadrive (16bit 1988 technology) + Mega CD they could have put some tiny bit of R&D in there to push it beyond the A1200 which at that point was 1 year old. Surely something must have happened in the labs who did the AGA chipset? Surely the chip prices had gone down a bit? Memory, CPU.. (the 020 was bout 9 years old by then).. So no, they didn't want to do anything beyond the bare minimum.. Not even on the software side which sometimes can make up for crappy hardware.. But thats another more complex story..
So yea.. I guess that in the end, they got what they "deserved".. Sad but the tech biz is an unforgiving place..

Now 20-25 years later we of course love our crappy machines.. I have 3 CD32s and yes.. even a shitty C64GS :-)
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Old 28 November 2018, 14:13   #169
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I think some are missing the point of the CD32, I don't think it was aimed at people who already had an Amiga but rather people who saw anything with a keyboard as being nerdy. Even with games consoles it wasn't really until the Playstation era that they became cool and had mass market appeal.
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Old 28 November 2018, 14:28   #170
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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
I think some are missing the point of the CD32, I don't think it was aimed at people who already had an Amiga but rather people who saw anything with a keyboard as being nerdy.
Not missing the point. That's why we compare to the SNES and Megadrive of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen M View Post
We are talking about games because the CD32 is a console.
I understand that.
I just wanted to say that the CD32 neither could impress potential "pure console" buyers (as it couldn't compete with SNES and Megadrive), nor convince most Amiga Owners ("fanbase") to buy it as addition to their setup as they could get most games already for their desktop Amigas. Except the cdrom drive you didn't get anything new with buying a CD32. And a cdrom drive could easily be added.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
I think the problem is these days people seem to see everything as binary with no middle ground. When I look through the CD32 games catalogue I see some pretty awesome games:
...of which most were already available for desktop Amiga - when comparing to them.
And not just that, they were even available for SNES, Megadrive or both.
At least Cannon Fodder, Chaos Engine, Jungle Strike, Speedball 2, Syndicate, Theme Park, Worms, Lotus
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Old 28 November 2018, 15:05   #171
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I think some are missing the point of the CD32, I don't think it was aimed at people who already had an Amiga but rather people who saw anything with a keyboard as being nerdy. Even with games consoles it wasn't really until the Playstation era that they became cool and had mass market appeal.

I think it wasn't aimed for anyone. Commodore was desperate for money. The CD32 concept and build was practically a hush-hush operation. None of the other in development hardware was ready for anything. So they took their AGA hardware and built a crappy console. That's the harsh truth. For some unknown reason the console was a bit of a success in the UK. Maybe that's why some people still defend this pointless hardware to this day.


@Gordon


You should know that James didn't actually throw the console into the trash. He likes to do that for the dramatic effect, to substantiate his opinion.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 28 November 2018 at 15:16.
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Old 28 November 2018, 15:13   #172
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
[...] and yes.. even a shitty C64GS :-)
Funny. Never heard about it until reading your post.
Thank you for my general knowledge
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Old 28 November 2018, 15:34   #173
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It wasn't exactly just a last ditched attempt to pull in money and I think this one pulls together commodores design thinking folks. The CD1200 addon was in development that would of been bundled with a trapdoor expansion with akiko on it with the rest of the hardware remaining the same. The CD32 was to be a gaming companion to the A1200. A more powerful CD32 would of caused compatibility problems for the CD1200 when it launched. Cost obviously would of been taken into account so keep the CD32 as close to the 1200 as possible to make the future 1200 expansion easier to sell.

In short the failings of the CD32 are attributed to the failings of the AGA chipset. It was doomed before pencil went to paper.

I still love it though haha


EDIT: I also don't buy the fact that the hardware couldn't compete with the SNES or Mega Drive. Each platform has its strengths and weaknesses but a well written AGA game (to my eye anyway) is superior to anything the Nintendo or Sega consoles can put out. Its just that the AGA list of games is somewhat lacking in terms of quantity and even more so in terms of quality.
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Old 28 November 2018, 15:50   #174
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
You should know that James didn't actually throw the console into the trash. He likes to do that for the dramatic effect, to substantiate his opinion.
Probably not, he collects things after all, but this poor Sega 32x wasnt so lucky ;-)
[ Show youtube player ]
(8mins 30s in case the playtime thing doesnt work)
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Old 28 November 2018, 16:03   #175
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It wasn't exactly just a last ditched attempt to pull in money and I think this one pulls together commodores design thinking folks. The CD1200 addon was in development that would of been bundled with a trapdoor expansion with akiko on it with the rest of the hardware remaining the same. The CD32 was to be a gaming companion to the A1200. A more powerful CD32 would of caused compatibility problems for the CD1200 when it launched. Cost obviously would of been taken into account so keep the CD32 as close to the 1200 as possible to make the future 1200 expansion easier to sell.
I've heard David Pleasence talk about the plans for the CD1200 thing and while Im sure it made a lot of sense from his point of view, if it had actually worked, it would have created a situation where no one would dare to create games that utilized any expansion on the A1200. (It would be worse that today's games where devs find a common baseline for PS4, Xbox One, PC... to save development cost)
Sure, in theory the CD32 was expandable, but from Commodore's point of view, you were supposed to buy a FMV module, not a 030 with fastmem for it so what you had from the start would be what devs would create games for and no A1200 gamer would really benefit from accelerators and mem upgrades.. I think a lot of Amiga users at that particular time wanted to at least try to follow some of the trends on PC (Yes First person stuff etc..) and not go down into a nische like the NEC PC-FX.. (yes - another crappy console I have :-)
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Old 28 November 2018, 22:26   #176
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Originally Posted by dreamkatcha View Post
Watch some dude eat stuff and forget to 'react' while he watches the AVGN CD32 episode

[ Show youtube player ]

Some dude's nasal passageway reacts to the AVGN CD32 episode

[ Show youtube player ]
We're at that point of the internet where things don't make much sense
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Old 28 November 2018, 23:13   #177
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You should know that James didn't actually throw the console into the trash. He likes to do that for the dramatic effect, to substantiate his opinion.
You mean he DID, for filming, but retrieved it after filming. And I suspect he did it more than once, too.
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Old 28 November 2018, 23:22   #178
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Could be that he keeps a working unit for his collection, and destroys a faulty unit for the show.
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Old 28 November 2018, 23:40   #179
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Could be that he keeps a working unit for his collection, and destroys a faulty unit for the show.
I think I mentioned that before here.
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Old 30 November 2018, 00:52   #180
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I'm surprised there were no Team17 games in his video. Speris Legacy and Alien Breed 3d are both comically horrible on the CD32, and both of them required you to enter a code from the manual to play.....and this is supposed to be a console game!

I love the CD32, but as a console it was a huge joke.
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