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Old 24 August 2019, 21:01   #81
mcgeezer
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I have to say that i agree with Photon, the demo while stylistic and great as it is, is pretty much all pre-calculated. There’s very little wow factor in it for me.

It’s still good though.
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Old 24 August 2019, 21:17   #82
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I'd really like to hear Black Lotus' side on this. I'm not doubting Photon's or mcgeezer's coding expertise , but maybe there's more to it.
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Old 25 August 2019, 12:17   #83
skan
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Nice read.
http://tbl.nu/2019/08/20/Tooling/
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Old 25 August 2019, 14:10   #84
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Originally Posted by skan View Post
Well, lookie there. Lines.bin somehow speaks so eloquently.

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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
despite you trying to knock it
I describe what happened. The audience stayed quiet until the fake stuff started. Sometimes descriptions aren't nice to hear.
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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
for whatever reason
Well, I certainly gain nothing, rather I risk irrational hate and impopularity.
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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
unless it breaks a specific rule
I hope that demo compos get rules like for the other compos I listed.

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coding expertise
I'm not sure you need that. Having seen earlier prods helps, but I think if you have sharp eyes you can notice a couple signs that give it away here.
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more to it.
Umm I was about to say, "Oh, there's sometimes a wordy write-up, pretending it's complicated to fake it too." Well, obviously it's not more complicated to prepare a faked effect than to code the real effect.
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Old 25 August 2019, 16:35   #85
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I hope that demo compos get rules like for the other compos I listed.
I highly doubt it will happen, as it will require checking the code for each effect, to determine if its "animation".

As an (ex) C64 demo coder, I can tell you that every 3D effect you ever saw on the platform has some pre-calculation in it.
The 6502 doesn't have mul and div instructions, and doing these operations without a lookup-table is too costly on such a slow CPU.
Same goes for projection, its a lookup-table.
Same goes for many other effects which rely on trig functions.

So we can ask the question: what is considered animation in this context, where does the line go ?

I personally don't have an issue with pre-calculated 3D math on slow platforms, as most of the time is taken by rendering anyway.
Without going this route, we'd still be stuck with the same, reiterated, old effects like scrollers, filled vectors, twisters, tunnels etc.
How many times can you code/watch these effects?

Also, don't forget this demo was created for the Revision crowd, which I assume most there won't be able to judge a demo by its code, only the visuals.

Times are changing, unfortunately.
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Old 25 August 2019, 19:09   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photon View Post

I describe what happened. The audience stayed quiet until the fake stuff started. Sometimes descriptions aren't nice to hear.

Well, I certainly gain nothing, rather I risk irrational hate and impopularity.

I hope that demo compos get rules like for the other compos I listed.
Being quiet doesn’t mean they weren’t enjoying it, kinda strange to think that, and if they made a noise when they enjoyed the latter parts thats because they enjoyed those bits more! I don’t recall anyone shouting ‘fake’ ‘get it off’ ‘boo’ etc

But i did notice you are only 1 or 2 people to downvote it on Pouet out of 266, so i guess you are clearly in the minority in the appreciation of this demo.

Who is hating on you? It’s your opinion, doesn’t make you right in what you think they can or can’t do unless specific rules are in place (IF they are doing what you imply they are).
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Old 25 August 2019, 22:14   #87
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Is it about some precalc tables or is it an entirely pre-rendered animation, sorry, I'm confused.
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Old 26 August 2019, 18:28   #88
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I thought that train pretty much left the station with "State of the art" in 92?
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Old 26 August 2019, 19:04   #89
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It's not that I think this is even a bad demo, I just think it's overrated, I thought the same of SOTA and Jesus on E's when they were released. My mates thought they were the best demo's ever and it pissed me off at the time.

Compared to something like Voyage, Enigma, Hardwired and lately The Fall..it's just not technically as good (in my opinion).
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Old 26 August 2019, 20:00   #90
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Well, I certainly gain nothing, rather I risk irrational hate and impopularity.
You'll always be my hero, no matter what
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Old 27 August 2019, 08:46   #91
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For the coders among you...

I suppose the guts of the demo is typically done outside of an Amiga...just like it was on those other similar demos.

http://tbl.nu/2019/08/26/ScenePacker...ABPruu9PpJCTo0
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Old 27 August 2019, 09:05   #92
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I fully understood that all that stuff is precalced by tools while watching EON.
But that didn't take any of my enjoyment of it away.

It's just that the "brains" behind it are not in doing something real time, but in before.

Sorry, but in the end I wanna see something that's simply not having been done before visually and story-wise. Great art, design, music, sounds effects, etc. If there is some technical achievement done by realtime asm that's the cherry on top oif that for me.

EON delivered like 200% of that.

Last edited by Steril707; 27 August 2019 at 10:23.
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Old 27 August 2019, 10:15   #93
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I will not change what I wrote in my previous post (#12).
However, I can add that after reading the provided links, I find the work and ideas (how to achieve the result) behind this demo excellent.
I hope to see other productions pushing the limits in this way (but with a better music of course ).
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Old 27 August 2019, 11:09   #94
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For anyone interested, the broken mirror 3D cube effect in De Profundis is an animation done in almost exactly the same way as the EON renderer...even down to twizzling the palette order to minimize the amount drawn to each bitplane.
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Old 27 August 2019, 11:13   #95
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For anyone interested, the broken mirror 3D cube effect in De Profundis is an animation done in almost exactly the same way as the EON renderer...
Now that would qualify the whole demo for an instant thumb down, how dare you!!
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Old 27 August 2019, 11:58   #96
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For anyone interested, the broken mirror 3D cube effect in De Profundis is an animation done in almost exactly the same way as the EON renderer...even down to twizzling the palette order to minimize the amount drawn to each bitplane.
Shame on you...
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Old 27 August 2019, 12:00   #97
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Originally Posted by mcgeezer View Post
For the coders among you...

I suppose the guts of the demo is typically done outside of an Amiga...just like it was on those other similar demos.

http://tbl.nu/2019/08/26/ScenePacker...ABPruu9PpJCTo0
Interesting article.

Looking at the code for decoding the vertices I couldn't help thinking that there is a better way to store/unpack data (yes, obviously the one in the article is nice!).
The code would be faster (22 cycles less per loop, ~14% speed up), would use much less memory for tables (one single 256 bytes table vs three per 1024, which could also be PC relative) and fewer registers used.
Off course always using 6 signed bits per value and 3 bytes in memory.

This is not the right section but it could be a good exercise for the coder section.
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Old 27 August 2019, 23:44   #98
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Asle: I appreciate that.

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As an (ex) C64 demo coder... 3D... -/- Times are changing, unfortunately.
Oh, they changed with the first fake democompo win and stayed changed. The scene is a collection of individuals, though. We show what we like continuously, and that way appreciation can change. 3D is not impossible on C64, as game devs showed early. I'm sure demo coders can make it faster, if appreciation grows.

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we'd still be stuck with the same, reiterated, old effects
Or old effects exported to animation to make you out as the new hotness and all the other demo coders look old hat?

I think the reason for old effects in animation prods could be that if it's new, it looks like an animation, because viewers have no previous effect to compare to. Very dangerous!

New effects = playing around and experimenting. With a clean slate or within any framework. I see no diff, or maybe a slight advantage for just writing code, because 100% of the hardware glitch/exploit effects were found on the hardware. After the emulator is updated, it can be used on PC in the framework.

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where does the line go?
No line. A scale, from just special-casing to tables to precalc all the way over to animation. Abuse (or just practicality) has led to the categories, platforms, and artificial limits (greatly expanded by crunchers ) in place today. Everyone decides for themselves what is too much, experience makes appreciation deeper, richer.

If there were rules as in the other compos, there might be some line, but probably just organizer discretion as today would do the same job.

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Being quiet doesn’t mean they weren’t enjoying it
Agree, as I wrote they waited, taking in the story. The point is they were not convinced until they were blessed by the Animation Presented as Effect.

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Who is hating on you? It’s your opinion
Exactly. I think some who have joined Pouet can echo the depressing attitude you get from some users there - even if you don't have an unpopular opinion.

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Is it about some precalc tables or is it an entirely pre-rendered animation, sorry, I'm confused.
The animations were made in Maya/Blender, exported and packed, and played back as 2D on the target platform.

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broken mirror 3D cube effect in De Profundis is an animation
One part out of many that are quite enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by britelite View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanScott View Post
broken mirror 3D cube effect in De Profundis is an animation
Now that would qualify the whole demo for an instant thumb down, how dare you!!
It might. For me, it would depend how good or interesting the rest is, and how big the cheat gain is.

It was perfectly possible to tell this exact story without animation, at 3 FPS. That would have been impressive, since then Amiga 500 would have gotten some well-designed, detailed 3D objects, a fast 3D engine, and other things to appreciate.
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Old 28 August 2019, 09:28   #99
Samurai_Crow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
Interesting article.

Looking at the code for decoding the vertices I couldn't help thinking that there is a better way to store/unpack data (yes, obviously the one in the article is nice!).
The code would be faster (22 cycles less per loop, ~14% speed up), would use much less memory for tables (one single 256 bytes table vs three per 1024, which could also be PC relative) and fewer registers used.
Off course always using 6 signed bits per value and 3 bytes in memory.

This is not the right section but it could be a good exercise for the coder section.
Why not write a streamed "demo codec" with audio DMA triggers to make some more practical use of this style of technology? At one point I was thinking of storing border bits in an anim and using the blitter to fill the image. If it can render to a graphics card as well as to the Amiga chipsets it might make a nice alternative to CDXL when drawing figures with solid color regions.
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Old 28 August 2019, 10:22   #100
ross
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Why not write a streamed "demo codec" with audio DMA triggers to make some more practical use of this style of technology?
Yes I too had a similar idea for a project I wanted to start (it's probably a pretty common idea). Then real life engulfed me
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