A500 and A1200 issues

[slk486]

So I just bought a lot with 3 x A500s, 2 x A600s, 1 x A1200, 1 x A2000, and a CD32 - as well as several peripherals, and am trying to test what works, and what needs to be done.

1.
The A1200 has no disk drive, but seems to work correctly when connected to my A4000s drive (Cannon Fodder 2 loads up). I am wondering if it's normal (never had an A1200 before) that it takes around 10 seconds before it displays the kickstart screen and that soft reboot is delayed a couple of seconds? I remember the A500 was almost instant in both cases.

2.
One A500 (red power light) starts up and shows the kickstart screen, but once a disk is inserted, it loads for a few seconds, then powers off. What could be the issue there?

I'll probably need more brainpicking as I go, so please have patience with me

[fitzsteve]

1)

Yes the delay is normal whilst the A1200 is searching for IDE devices.

2)

Can you give any more info? Does the power light flash before it powers off (indicating a guru) or do you get a software failure guru on screen?

Have you tried another Floppy Drive or PSU?

Steve.

[slk486]

1) Nice, thanks.

2)
The floppy lights up loads a bit, then the power light switches of - leaving the floppy light on for a second, then the machine turns off. No guru's, no. This is with Cannon Fodder.
Funny thing, with Cannon Fodder 2 it loads up a red CLI and says it needs 1 meg. and stays there - fair enough, but that can hardly be the reason for turning off on other games
I haven't tried another PSU since it works fine with another A500 and the A1200. I can try another floppy drive, but could the drive do that?

[slk486]

Ha! Turns out it works fine - the power light just goes out.

Last Amiga is dead though It looks new, was in the original box, and so had no dust on it, whatsoever and had a Sharp!? ROM. Never seen that before.

[slk486]

Might as well have another go at my monologue here

Turns out after a bit of cleaning, that the A2000 MB has no corrosion (or whatever it's called), but still doesn't work - just black screen. Was thinking of putting it in the dishwasher as I've seen recommended, but am unclear if I should remove the socketed chips or not, and if I should use dishwasher soap, or not. Anyone?

[lugosi]

Originally Posted by slk486

...
The floppy lights up loads a bit, then the power light switches of - leaving the floppy light on for a second, then the machine turns off.

Originally Posted by slk486

Ha! Turns out it works fine - the power light just goes out.

Erm...so I assume when you tested this before, you didn't have a monitor or tv connected?
I mean, I was wondering if it could just be the LED. but then you wrote the machine "turned off"?

Amigas don't turn off on their own, unless something just fried (in) them

Older revisions of the 500 and 2000 had the Power-LED turn off when the audio-filter was turned off (and on when on). To make it more "obvious" whether the machine's still on or not, Commodore changed this in later revisions to only dim the LED instead.

Originally Posted by slk486

Last Amiga is dead though It looks new, was in the original box, and so had no dust on it, whatsoever and had a Sharp!? ROM. Never seen that before.

So in which way is it "dead"? What happens when you turn it on? Or what doesn't happen?

Originally Posted by slk486

Turns out after a bit of cleaning, that the A2000 MB has no corrosion (or whatever it's called), but still doesn't work - just black screen. Was thinking of putting it in the dishwasher as I've seen recommended,

Recommended by some as a possibility to get rid of leaked battery-acid and/or leaked electrolyte. Is there any of that on your board?

[rkauer]

The dishwasher machine is only to clean boards, no use to fix anything. Also don't use any soap!

Black screen on A2000 can have several causes, but the most common ones are broken traces on the CPU area (caused by a leaked battery), dead CPU or busted power supply (the 'tick' signal is dead).

[mech]

Try the usual, first check power supply voltages ,then check all your jumpers,if those are ok, pop all the chips and reseat them.If theres no battery leakage,no need to dishwasher it did any green corrosion get to the rom chip or the 68000 pins/sockets?

Mike

Originally Posted by slk486

Might as well have another go at my monologue here

Turns out after a bit of cleaning, that the A2000 MB has no corrosion (or whatever it's called), but still doesn't work - just black screen. Was thinking of putting it in the dishwasher as I've seen recommended, but am unclear if I should remove the socketed chips or not, and if I should use dishwasher soap, or not. Anyone?

[8bitbubsy]

Originally Posted by slk486

The floppy lights up loads a bit, then the power light switches of - leaving the floppy light on for a second, then the machine turns off. No guru's, no. This is with Cannon Fodder.
Funny thing, with Cannon Fodder 2 it loads up a red CLI and says it needs 1 meg. and stays there - fair enough, but that can hardly be the reason for turning off on other games
I haven't tried another PSU since it works fine with another A500 and the A1200. I can try another floppy drive, but could the drive do that?

Try to power the machine on as many times as you can handle.. Let it "turn off itself" as you said. Maybe it needs a big warm-up.. Maybe it's the capacitors, but somehow I doubt it.

[slk486]

Originally Posted by lugosi

Erm...so I assume when you tested this before, you didn't have a monitor or tv connected?
I mean, I was wondering if it could just be the LED. but then you wrote the machine "turned off"?

Lol, I did, but the game I was testing with apparently had a black screen on loading at the same moment, so black screen on tv, power light switches off, and pause in the loading and I assumed the worst. Should probably have noticed that the TV still had a signal

Originally Posted by lugosi

Amigas don't turn off on their own, unless something just fried (in) them

Older revisions of the 500 and 2000 had the Power-LED turn off when the audio-filter was turned off (and on when on). To make it more "obvious" whether the machine's still on or not, Commodore changed this in later revisions to only dim the LED instead.

The Amiga in question is and older revision, so I just figured something was rotten
I must've had a later rev Amiga, because I don't remember the power light turning off.

Originally Posted by lugosi

So in which way is it "dead"? What happens when you turn it on? Or what doesn't happen?

Black screen - no gray/white flashes, and no kick screen. Tried a Kick rom from a working Amiga with same rev. mb - same deal.

Originally Posted by mech

Try the usual, first check power supply voltages ,then check all your jumpers,if those are ok, pop all the chips and reseat them.If theres no battery leakage,no need to dishwasher it did any green corrosion get to the rom chip or the 68000 pins/sockets?

Mike

No signs of battery acid or leaky caps, but some green corrosion on the mouse port, on some of the solderings on the front, on the ROM and CPU sockets and some on the empty CPU socket. The CPU has some whiteness to some of the pins. Wanted to wash it to get rid of the green stuff and the dust

When the SCSI card was in, the HD connected to it powered up, so the Zorro slots must have enough juice?
I guess I should check the voltages, but which voltages would I expect? I know the 4 pins should be 12, as in a PC, right?
Where can I find the jumper settings?

Looks like joy port 2 has been removed for some reason.

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

Try to power the machine on as many times as you can handle.. Let it "turn off itself" as you said. Maybe it needs a big warm-up.. Maybe it's the capacitors, but somehow I doubt it.

This one was me being paranoid

[lugosi]

Originally Posted by slk486

Black screen - no gray/white flashes, and no kick screen. Tried a Kick rom from a working Amiga with same rev. mb - same deal.

So the tv/monitor gets a signal, but it's just black? Does the floppy drive make any sound (clicking) at all?

Originally Posted by slk486

No signs of battery acid or leaky caps, but

::: cough :::
Signs of battery acid:

Originally Posted by slk486

some green corrosion on the mouse port, on some of the solderings on the front, on the ROM and CPU sockets and some on the empty CPU socket. The CPU has some whiteness to some of the pins.

So now that we've established that your board shows "No signs of battery acid" (no, none at all ), first of all: if the battery is still on the board: cut or solder it off and toss it, it's the root of all evil on your board.
Take the chips out of the greenish sockets, inspect them, clean them from any green stuff, if possible test them in a known working board.
At least the greenish sockets need to be replaced (best would be to replace all "infected" parts).
Desolder the old sockets (and other parts to be replaced), and clean the whole area with some PCB-cleaner (or something else neutralizing). Any corrosion on the board itself must be treated too (dull/green solder, darkened areas on the PCB), for example with a glass fiber cleaning-pen (else the acid that soaked into the PCB's surface will just continue the destruction).
The next step would be to measure continuity of the tracks in the "infected area" of the board.

Originally Posted by slk486

Looks like joy port 2 has been removed for some reason.

Joy port 2 often kind of "broke free" after some time of "Joystick -> Mouse -> Joystick -> Mouse" connecting/disconnecting. The supporting ground pins would simply break/snap off from the stress, so...maybe the former owner wanted to replace it but just never did.

[orange]

its not acid, so you shouldn't call it that way. its misleading.

[slk486]

Originally Posted by lugosi

So the tv/monitor gets a signal, but it's just black? Does the floppy drive make any sound (clicking) at all?

I'll re-check.

Originally Posted by lugosi

::: cough :::
Signs of battery acid:

Oops, I didn't know those were signs The first thing I did, before even powering it up, was remove the battery, which only showed signs of a tiny leakage. Previous owner could've cleaned it I guess, but except for the green stuff, the board looks to be in quite good shape (to me, that is ) No bubbles in the layers like I've seen on other damaged components, like the RAM extension for A500 sitting in front of me.

Originally Posted by lugosi

So now that we've established that your board shows "No signs of battery acid" (no, none at all ), first of all: if the battery is still on the board: cut or solder it off and toss it, it's the root of all evil on your board.
Take the chips out of the greenish sockets, inspect them, clean them from any green stuff, if possible test them in a known working board.
At least the greenish sockets need to be replaced (best would be to replace all "infected" parts).
Desolder the old sockets (and other parts to be replaced), and clean the whole area with some PCB-cleaner (or something else neutralizing). Any corrosion on the board itself must be treated too (dull/green solder, darkened areas on the PCB), for example with a glass fiber cleaning-pen (else the acid that soaked into the PCB's surface will just continue the destruction).

Don't have another A2000 board, so can't test the chips. Isn't the dishwasher option supposed to be able to clean and neutralize the acid?
My soldering skills are probably not anywhere near good enough for that kind of work.

Originally Posted by lugosi

The next step would be to measure continuity of the tracks in the "infected area" of the board.

Sounds like a lot of work

Originally Posted by lugosi

Joy port 2 often kind of "broke free" after some time of "Joystick -> Mouse -> Joystick -> Mouse" connecting/disconnecting. The supporting ground pins would simply break/snap off from the stress, so...maybe the former owner wanted to replace it but just never did.

Now that you mention it, I think the same actually happened to the one I had back in the day

[slk486]

Originally Posted by orange

its not acid, so you shouldn't call it that way. its misleading.

Ok, corrosive fluid, then

[lugosi]

@orange: what would you prefer it to be called?

Originally Posted by slk486

Don't have another A2000 board, so can't test the chips. Isn't the dishwasher option supposed to be able to clean and neutralize the acid?
My soldering skills are probably not anywhere near good enough for that kind of work.

The A2000 (as long as it's a version with a square Agnus) is pretty much just an A500 with Zorro slots in a big box, you can take the Kick-ROM, the cpu and the custom-chips (Gary, Denise, Paula) and test them in a known good A500 board too.

About the dishwasher method...I'm not sure if it's "neutralizing" anything. It'll wash the board's surface, it'll soak the PCB (which is why very thorough drying afterwards is a must), a hot cycle could warp, damage and "total" the board.

But just compare the corrosion (the green stuff) to rust: If you put something very rusty into a dishwasher, would all the rust be gone after the wash cycle?
What about the rust that's already under the surface-paint? Would it be washed away? Or the rust under some small edges? And would the metal be all nice and shiny again?

What I'm trying to say here is: It may wash away the harmful "fluid" from the board's surface, it may also wash away some "surface-green" from infected sockets/parts/solder, but it won't fully reach and/or remove what's inside the sockets (on, in and under the socket's contacts).
It also won't remove any fluid that already made it's way under the board's surface (happily eating away on the tracks) or any fluid that possibly already crept into some infected parts.

There don't need to be "bubbles" on the board like on your expansion, a discoloration of the surface (darker color around the spot where the battery sat for example), if not taken care of, is pretty much the first step towards a potential bubble-board though

[slk486]

Hmm, ok. Will try the chips on an A500.

I see you point. Will brush up the board with vinegar, and put it in the Dishwasher afterwards. Should I also treat the infected pins on the cpu with vinegar and clean them?

[rkauer]

First, do as people said: test the CPU and ROM on another Amiga (A500, A600(just the ROM), CDTV).

The battery spillage is a base (alkaline) and react with metals (like the copper on the motherboard traces), eaten away where it touches.

The resulting Copper+hydrate will then continue to corroding the traces until there is nothing more to corrode. The reacting occurs even on absence of oxygen!

So you need to neutralize the alkaline residues with a mild acid (remember the chemistry lessons back on school? Yes, now they'll worth something). The weapon of choice is lemon juice or spirit vinegar. Pour on the area (be liberal!) and let it be for up to ten minutes!!!!!!!!

Then wash the area with common tap water or put the entire board on the dishwasher on a cold cycle with no kind of machine soap at all. You can use a small quantity of ordinary liquid soap, just to help dissolve some dust.

Then put the board on a vented cupboard for some days and, after that, you can check the traces on the affected area.

[8bitbubsy]

Originally Posted by rkauer

The battery spillage is a base (alkaline) and react with metals (like the copper on the motherboard traces), eaten away where it touches.

The resulting Copper+hydrate will then continue to corroding the traces until there is nothing more to corrode. The reacting occurs even on absence of oxygen!

So you need to neutralize the alkaline residues with a mild acid (remember the chemistry lessons back on school? Yes, now they'll worth something). The weapon of choice is lemon juice or spirit vinegar. Pour on the area (be liberal!) and let it be for up to ten minutes!!!!!!!!

Off to the super market later this morning to buy a lemon!
Can I just use a lemon and squeeze it then put the liquid in a little box in the refrigerator?

[slk486]

Originally Posted by rkauer

First, do as people said: test the CPU and ROM on another Amiga (A500, A600(just the ROM), CDTV).

The battery spillage is a base (alkaline) and react with metals (like the copper on the motherboard traces), eaten away where it touches.

The resulting Copper+hydrate will then continue to corroding the traces until there is nothing more to corrode. The reacting occurs even on absence of oxygen!

So you need to neutralize the alkaline residues with a mild acid (remember the chemistry lessons back on school? Yes, now they'll worth something). The weapon of choice is lemon juice or spirit vinegar. Pour on the area (be liberal!) and let it be for up to ten minutes!!!!!!!!

Then wash the area with common tap water or put the entire board on the dishwasher on a cold cycle with no kind of machine soap at all. You can use a small quantity of ordinary liquid soap, just to help dissolve some dust.

Then put the board on a vented cupboard for some days and, after that, you can check the traces on the affected area.

Ok, got it. Chips first, but in any case, the board needs to be cleaned.

And no, I don't remember much of my chemistry from school

Thanks!

[slk486]

Ok, board has been cleaned, waiting for it to dry completely - looks fantastic

The CPU works fine in an A500, but the ROM doesn't. Looks like it's a 2.05 - that's easily replaceable though.

Once it's dry I'll try putting it together and see if it shows any signs of life. I'm gonna stop at checking the traces though. Couldn't repair them anyway.