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Old 04 November 2019, 21:09   #21
ross
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Interesting thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalms View Post
On 030/50, a write takes 2c (or was it 4c?) to complete in the core, and then it goes to the write pending buffer.
From what I remember 3 clock bus cycles for 68020 and 2 clock bus cycles for 68030.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dissident View Post
Your statement about the 68040/60 cache modes confirms my knowledge about how to configurate the cache modes for CHIP memory. For a proper use it would be a disaster if the CHIP memory would have the write through cache mode.
Do you have some code for a cold start setup (i.e. bootblock code for a game/demo start?)
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Old 04 November 2019, 21:28   #22
ross
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Unfortunately I have never had a 040 or 060, so I'm not totally sure how to handle them to their full potential in a true real Amiga environment..
[this should have been put in the message above, but oh well ]
--

I found this interesting text among my old documents for 030 :
Code:
               MC68030 COMPARISON WITH MC68020

I read with interest the "Assessing MC68030 and MC68882 Performance" letter
from Roy Druian, Product Marketing Manager of Motorola, as well as Dave
Bursky's "32-Bit Microprocessors 1987 Technology Forecast" in the Electronic
Design magazine of Jan. 8, 1987.  Mr. Druian's letter tried to demonstrate
that Motorola's 68030 at 20MHz has twice the performance of 68020 at 16.67MHz.
In Mr. Busky's survey, Motorola's 68030 is presented as having 3 times the
performance of 68020.

Using Motorola's own performance data for 68020 and the data available for
68030 (see bibliography below), I calculated the 68030 performance improvement
relative to the 68020.  These calculations, presented in detail below, show
that the performance of 68030 is only 18% better than that of 68020 at the same
frequency (20MHz) even if we believe the high hit ratios Motorola claims for
its small (256 byte) internal caches.

Using the data presented by Motorola in [2], the calculated 68030 performance
is 3.3 MIPS at 20 MHz, while 68020 performance is 2.3 MIPS at 16.67 and 2.8
MIPS at 20MHz.

The other 68030 problems that Motorola's papers do not stress are:
        -impossible timing for its synchronous bus protocol (very hard and
         expensive to run with zero wait-states at 20MHz).
        -virtual (logical) caches (see [1] for problems of virtual caches)
        -lack of hardware cache invalidation for the internal caches, which
         makes 68030 very hard to use in multiprocessing systems or where
         external devices (eg. DMA) may change memory values
        -long context switching time, because it has to save temporary data
         inside the CPU (problem inherited from 68020)
        -small TLB (Address Translation Cache) for the 68030 MMU (22 entries
         only)

Actually 68030 has no real MMU, as the TLB misses are handled by the 68030
Execution Unit and not by the MMU itself, transparent to the execution pipe.
The high price of a TLB miss (because it is handled in microcode, serial to
the instruction execution), combined with the relatively low TLB hit ratio
(should be 90 - 95% for the 22 entry TLB and not 98% as Motorola claims)
makes the use of the on-chip 68030 MMU expensive in terms of performance.

        68030 vs. 68020 Comparison

The improvements of 68030 versus 68020 consist of improvement of the Instruction
Cache hit ratio due to larger line size (16 bytes for 68030 vs. 4 bytes for
68020), addition of a small Data Cache and integration of the MMU on chip.

As for the "internal Harvard architecture", 68020 allows also the overlap of
instruction fetches with data operand access [3].  The 68030 left unchanged
the Execution Unit, except for the addition of some instructions to support
the TLB on chip [4].  As a consequence, the only change in the performance
model of 68030 when compared with 68020 is the improvement in the performance
penalty for addressing instructions and data in memory.

Using Motorola's own data (Table 6 in [2]), the average number of operand memory
access per instruction for 68020 are:
        -0.384 reads per instruction
        -0.242 writes per instruction

The Data Cache with 48% hit ratio and the 2 clock bus cycle will improve the
68030 execution time by:

0.384 * 0.48 * 2 + 0.384 * 0.52 * 1 = 0.567 clocks

where:
        - 0.384 represents the average number of operand reads per instruction,
        - 0.48 represents the Data Cach hit ratio,
        - 2 represents the difference, in clocks, between 68020 going to
          external memory (no wait states) and 68030 finding data in the
          internal cache,
        - 0.52 (1-0.48) represents the Data Cache miss ratio,
        - 1 represents the difference, in clocks, between the 3 clock bus
          cycle of 68020 and the 2 clock bus cycle of 68030.

The writes have roughly the same influence on performance for 68020 and 68030,
as the Data Cache is a write-through cache and writes are buffered by the BIU.

The other 68030 improvement is the higher Instruction Cache hit ratio because
of 16 byte line size (the effect of the burst is already taken into account
in the hit ratio of the Instruction Cache and Data Cache).

According to Table 4 in [2], the number of clocks-per-instruction for 68020
drops from 7.159 with a 64% hit ratio instruction cache to 6.373 with a 100%
hit ratio instruction cache (an improvement of 0.786 clocks-per-instruction).
The estimated improvement given to 68030 by its 82% hit ratio instruction
cache and its 2 clock bus protocol (no wait state) is 0.5 clocks-per-instruc-
tion.

The overall performance improvements due to the architectural improvements
of 68030 relative to 68020 is then:

0.567 + 0.5 = 1.067 clocks/instruction

According to Motorola's own calculations in [2], the average performance of
68020 with the Instruction Cache ON for the workload in [2] is 7.159 clocks/
instruction (Table 4 in [2]) when no wait states are present.  This translates
into 2.3 MIPS at 16.67 MHz and 2.8 MIPS at 20MHz.  

The (7.159 -1.067) = 6.092 clocks/instruction for 68030 translates into 3.3
MIPS at 20MHz.

The relative improvement in performance of 68030 versus 68020 at the same
frequency is then:

(3.3 - 2.8) * 100/ 2.8 = 18%

If the 16.67 MHz 68020 is compared against the 20 MHz 68030, the performance
improvement factor is still only:

(3.3 - 2.3) * 100/ 2.3 = 43%

        68030 Synchronous Bus Timing

Even the 18% architectural improvements of 68030 versus 68020 is questionable
because of the way the 68030 2-cycle synchronous bus protocol is designed.

For a Read bus cycle, the 68030 issues the address at the beginning of the
first clock cycle and expects the system to return the ready signal (named
STERM) at the end of the same cycle.  Data is sampled by 68030 in the middle
of the second cycle.  According to the 68030 spec [6], the read bus timing at
20MHz is:

        - Address-to-STERM time = 25 ns
        - Address-to-Data time = 40 ns

For a Write bus cycle, 68030 issues the address at the beginning of the first
clock cycle, data at the beginning of the second clock cycle and expects the
system to return ready (STERM) at the end of the first cycle.  According to
the 68030 spec, the write bus timing at 20 MHz is :

        - Address-to-STERM time = 25 ns
        - Write Data Valid time = 25 ns

It is hard to avoid wait-states at 20MHz with such timing even when using
the fastest and most expensive static RAM's.  No wonder the Motorola is
unwilling to  commit pushing 68030 beyond 20MHz; with the 68030 bus protocol
wait states are unavoidable.

                Sorin Iacobovici
                Computer and System Architecture
                National Semiconductor Corp.
                Santa Clara, Ca.
        
        REFERENCES
        ----------

        1. A.J. Smith "Cache Memories", ACM Computing Surveys, vol.14,
                no. 3, September 1982, pp. 473-530
        2. D. MacGregor, J. Rubinstein "A Performance Analysis of
                MC68020-based Systems", IEEE Micro, Dec. 1985,
                pp. 50-70
        3. D. MacGregor, D. Mothersole and B. Moyer "The Motorola MC68020",
                IEEE Micro, Vol.4, no.4 Aug. 1984, pp. 101-118
        4. J.T.Reinhart "Extra Functions and Higher Speed Push
                Microprocessor to Top", Electron Products,
                Oct. 1, 1986, pp.35-39
        5. D. MacGregor "Diverse Applications Put Splotlight on 68020's
                Improvements", Electronic Design, Feb. 7, 1985,
                pp.155-164
        6. Motorola Inc. "MC68030 -Second Generation 32-Bit Enhanced
                Microprocessor", Technical Data, Motorola Inc., 1986
                pp. 1-27

Last edited by ross; 04 November 2019 at 22:19. Reason: []
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Old 06 November 2019, 15:29   #23
dissident
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
Interesting thread!
Do you have some code for a cold start setup (i.e. bootblock code for a game/demo start?)
I'm not sure if I can help you. I'm not an expert programming 68040/060 MMUs. I once opened this thead: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=95171 mainly to turn off the 68040/60's caches and control the cachemodes via the TTx registers registers without a MMU table. My post from 24 January 2019, 09:30 in my thread may help you and make things clearer. Sorry, but I didn't understand yet how to create MMU tables. The question is what you want to set at boot time. The caches are turned off and the cashmodes are like I explained in this thread.

Alternatively I have these links:

The 68030 and 68040 on the Zorro III Bus http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD.../node0161.html

68040 Compability Warning http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD.../node0083.html

68040 Programming https://www.drdobbs.com/68040-programming/184408316

Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
Unfortunately I have never had a 040 or 060, so I'm not totally sure how to handle them to their full potential in a true real Amiga environment..
[this should have been put in the message above, but oh well ]
--

I found this interesting text among my old documents for 030 :
Code:
               MC68030 COMPARISON WITH MC68020

I read with interest the "Assessing MC68030 and MC68882 Performance" letter
from Roy Druian, Product Marketing Manager of Motorola, as well as Dave
Bursky's "32-Bit Microprocessors 1987 Technology Forecast" in the Electronic
Design magazine of Jan. 8, 1987.  Mr. Druian's letter tried to demonstrate
that Motorola's 68030 at 20MHz has twice the performance of 68020 at 16.67MHz.
In Mr. Busky's survey, Motorola's 68030 is presented as having 3 times the
performance of 68020.

Using Motorola's own performance data for 68020 and the data available for
68030 (see bibliography below), I calculated the 68030 performance improvement
relative to the 68020.  These calculations, presented in detail below, show
that the performance of 68030 is only 18% better than that of 68020 at the same
frequency (20MHz) even if we believe the high hit ratios Motorola claims for
its small (256 byte) internal caches.

Using the data presented by Motorola in [2], the calculated 68030 performance
is 3.3 MIPS at 20 MHz, while 68020 performance is 2.3 MIPS at 16.67 and 2.8
MIPS at 20MHz.

The other 68030 problems that Motorola's papers do not stress are:
        -impossible timing for its synchronous bus protocol (very hard and
         expensive to run with zero wait-states at 20MHz).
        -virtual (logical) caches (see [1] for problems of virtual caches)
        -lack of hardware cache invalidation for the internal caches, which
         makes 68030 very hard to use in multiprocessing systems or where
         external devices (eg. DMA) may change memory values
        -long context switching time, because it has to save temporary data
         inside the CPU (problem inherited from 68020)
        -small TLB (Address Translation Cache) for the 68030 MMU (22 entries
         only)

Actually 68030 has no real MMU, as the TLB misses are handled by the 68030
Execution Unit and not by the MMU itself, transparent to the execution pipe.
The high price of a TLB miss (because it is handled in microcode, serial to
the instruction execution), combined with the relatively low TLB hit ratio
(should be 90 - 95% for the 22 entry TLB and not 98% as Motorola claims)
makes the use of the on-chip 68030 MMU expensive in terms of performance.

        68030 vs. 68020 Comparison

The improvements of 68030 versus 68020 consist of improvement of the Instruction
Cache hit ratio due to larger line size (16 bytes for 68030 vs. 4 bytes for
68020), addition of a small Data Cache and integration of the MMU on chip.

As for the "internal Harvard architecture", 68020 allows also the overlap of
instruction fetches with data operand access [3].  The 68030 left unchanged
the Execution Unit, except for the addition of some instructions to support
the TLB on chip [4].  As a consequence, the only change in the performance
model of 68030 when compared with 68020 is the improvement in the performance
penalty for addressing instructions and data in memory.

Using Motorola's own data (Table 6 in [2]), the average number of operand memory
access per instruction for 68020 are:
        -0.384 reads per instruction
        -0.242 writes per instruction

The Data Cache with 48% hit ratio and the 2 clock bus cycle will improve the
68030 execution time by:

0.384 * 0.48 * 2 + 0.384 * 0.52 * 1 = 0.567 clocks

where:
        - 0.384 represents the average number of operand reads per instruction,
        - 0.48 represents the Data Cach hit ratio,
        - 2 represents the difference, in clocks, between 68020 going to
          external memory (no wait states) and 68030 finding data in the
          internal cache,
        - 0.52 (1-0.48) represents the Data Cache miss ratio,
        - 1 represents the difference, in clocks, between the 3 clock bus
          cycle of 68020 and the 2 clock bus cycle of 68030.

The writes have roughly the same influence on performance for 68020 and 68030,
as the Data Cache is a write-through cache and writes are buffered by the BIU.

The other 68030 improvement is the higher Instruction Cache hit ratio because
of 16 byte line size (the effect of the burst is already taken into account
in the hit ratio of the Instruction Cache and Data Cache).

According to Table 4 in [2], the number of clocks-per-instruction for 68020
drops from 7.159 with a 64% hit ratio instruction cache to 6.373 with a 100%
hit ratio instruction cache (an improvement of 0.786 clocks-per-instruction).
The estimated improvement given to 68030 by its 82% hit ratio instruction
cache and its 2 clock bus protocol (no wait state) is 0.5 clocks-per-instruc-
tion.

The overall performance improvements due to the architectural improvements
of 68030 relative to 68020 is then:

0.567 + 0.5 = 1.067 clocks/instruction

According to Motorola's own calculations in [2], the average performance of
68020 with the Instruction Cache ON for the workload in [2] is 7.159 clocks/
instruction (Table 4 in [2]) when no wait states are present.  This translates
into 2.3 MIPS at 16.67 MHz and 2.8 MIPS at 20MHz.  

The (7.159 -1.067) = 6.092 clocks/instruction for 68030 translates into 3.3
MIPS at 20MHz.

The relative improvement in performance of 68030 versus 68020 at the same
frequency is then:

(3.3 - 2.8) * 100/ 2.8 = 18%

If the 16.67 MHz 68020 is compared against the 20 MHz 68030, the performance
improvement factor is still only:

(3.3 - 2.3) * 100/ 2.3 = 43%

        68030 Synchronous Bus Timing

Even the 18% architectural improvements of 68030 versus 68020 is questionable
because of the way the 68030 2-cycle synchronous bus protocol is designed.

For a Read bus cycle, the 68030 issues the address at the beginning of the
first clock cycle and expects the system to return the ready signal (named
STERM) at the end of the same cycle.  Data is sampled by 68030 in the middle
of the second cycle.  According to the 68030 spec [6], the read bus timing at
20MHz is:

        - Address-to-STERM time = 25 ns
        - Address-to-Data time = 40 ns

For a Write bus cycle, 68030 issues the address at the beginning of the first
clock cycle, data at the beginning of the second clock cycle and expects the
system to return ready (STERM) at the end of the first cycle.  According to
the 68030 spec, the write bus timing at 20 MHz is :

        - Address-to-STERM time = 25 ns
        - Write Data Valid time = 25 ns

It is hard to avoid wait-states at 20MHz with such timing even when using
the fastest and most expensive static RAM's.  No wonder the Motorola is
unwilling to  commit pushing 68030 beyond 20MHz; with the 68030 bus protocol
wait states are unavoidable.

                Sorin Iacobovici
                Computer and System Architecture
                National Semiconductor Corp.
                Santa Clara, Ca.
        
        REFERENCES
        ----------

        1. A.J. Smith "Cache Memories", ACM Computing Surveys, vol.14,
                no. 3, September 1982, pp. 473-530
        2. D. MacGregor, J. Rubinstein "A Performance Analysis of
                MC68020-based Systems", IEEE Micro, Dec. 1985,
                pp. 50-70
        3. D. MacGregor, D. Mothersole and B. Moyer "The Motorola MC68020",
                IEEE Micro, Vol.4, no.4 Aug. 1984, pp. 101-118
        4. J.T.Reinhart "Extra Functions and Higher Speed Push
                Microprocessor to Top", Electron Products,
                Oct. 1, 1986, pp.35-39
        5. D. MacGregor "Diverse Applications Put Splotlight on 68020's
                Improvements", Electronic Design, Feb. 7, 1985,
                pp.155-164
        6. Motorola Inc. "MC68030 -Second Generation 32-Bit Enhanced
                Microprocessor", Technical Data, Motorola Inc., 1986
                pp. 1-27

That's an interesting document you found. Thanks for sharing.

Last edited by dissident; 06 November 2019 at 15:36.
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Old 06 November 2019, 18:02   #24
phx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
Do you have some code for a cold start setup (i.e. bootblock code for a game/demo start?)
Im using the following code in my games (started with trackloader from the boot block), while the OS is still alive:

1. Determine CPU and set up caches.
Code:
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
getCPU:
; Determine CPU type and the interrupt vector base.
; Called through Supervisor().
; a6 = SysBase
; Uses: d0, d1, d2

        ; get CPU type (68000-68040) from SysBase.AttnFlags
        moveq   #0,d0
        move.b  AttnFlags+1(a6),d1
        moveq   #0,d2
        lsr.b   #1,d1
        addx.b  d0,d2
        lsr.b   #1,d1
        addx.b  d0,d2
        lsr.b   #1,d1
        addx.b  d0,d2
        lsr.b   #1,d1
        addx.b  d0,d2
        move.b  d2,CPUtype(a4)
        beq     .1

        ; read vector base from VBR on 68010+ CPUs
        mc68010
        movec   vbr,d0
.1:     move.l  d0,AutoVecBase(a4)

        subq.b  #4,d2
        blo     .3

        ; 68060 check
        mc68040
        nop
        cpusha  bc
        moveq   #0,d0
        movec   d0,cacr

        ; Does the 68060 DC No Allocate Mode bit in CACR work?
        bset    #30,d0
        movec   d0,cacr
        movec   cacr,d0
        tst.l   d0
        beq     .2
        move.b  #6,CPUtype(a4)          ; ...then we have a real 68060
        move.l  #$00400000,d0           ; 68060: Clear All Branch Cache

        ; disable 68040/68060 caches for now
.2:     nop
        cpusha  bc
        movec   d0,cacr                 ; caches off for real

.3:     rte
2. Later, when I found the available memory and where to load the main program, enable caches for 040/060 and set up Transparent Translation for the MMU. Disable the paged MMU.
Code:
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
enableCaches:
; Enable 68040 and 68060 caches and set transparent translation registers.
; Called through Supervisor().
; a6 = SysBase
; d0 = main program base address

        cmp.b   #4,CPUtype(a4)
        blo     .2

        mc68040
        move.l  #$0000c040,d1
        movec   d1,itt0                 ; Cache Inhibit ChipRAM & Custom Chips
        movec   d1,dtt0
        and.l   #$ff000000,d0
        beq     .1                      ; main program in $00xxxxxx region?
        or.w    #$c020,d0
.1:     movec   d0,itt1                 ; Cache Copyback for Fast RAM
        movec   d0,dtt1

        ; paged MMU off
        nop
        moveq   #0,d0
        pflusha
        nop
        movec   d0,tc

        ; enable caches, store buffering, branch cache, clear branch cache
        move.l  #$a0c08000,d0
        movec   d0,cacr

.2:     rte
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Old 06 November 2019, 19:30   #25
Thomas Richter
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A word of warning: If you turn off the MMU on a 68040 or 68060, you make reliable DMA transfer impossible. That is, read or write accesses from DMA driven expansions such as SCSI host adapters may have unpredictable results.
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Old 06 November 2019, 23:55   #26
phx
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Thanks. I'm aware of that. I'm using these routines only in games, which take over the system and do nothing else than trackloading from 3.5" disk drives.
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Old 07 November 2019, 12:27   #27
ross
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Thank you all for your answers and suggestions.
I just have to digest the whole thing (I still have some doubts ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dissident View Post
My post from 24 January 2019, 09:30 in my thread may help you and make things clearer.
Yep, very helpful And thanks for various links.

Quote:
The question is what you want to set at boot time. The caches are turned off and the cashmodes are like I explained in this thread.
Usually I disable all caches for old games and/or compatibility.
But for a proper patched game, ICACHE would be better to be on (to speed-up unpacking and similar).
Seems that some 040/060 Amiga accelerators use MMU right at cold start, so a proper handling is due.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phx View Post
Im using the following code in my games (started with trackloader from the boot block), while the OS is still alive:
Thanks phx, the part 2) is what I'm talking about.
There are a couple of instructions that I am not convinced of, but I have to do some tests first and then ask you questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
That is (almost) correct. To be more precise: The 68040 and the 68060 have a "push buffer" into which they can perform a write while the bus is busy, and execute another instruction while the write is being piled up.

However, to activate this push buffer, the caching mode of the chip memory has to be set accordingly, namely to "non-serialized" on the 040 and "imprecise" on the 68060.

If the caching mode is "cache inhibited", then writes will also stall the 68040 and 68060 as it then guarantees purely sequential operation.
Ok, and this can be done also with only xTT registers with MMU disabled.
But how the global DCACHE active bit affect the memory access?
i.e if I global disable data cache, the access could be still non-serialized?

Cheers.
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Old 07 November 2019, 16:19   #28
Thomas Richter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
Ok, and this can be done also with only xTT registers with MMU disabled.
Hardly, because the custom chips and cias require serialized access (for obvious reasons) and the resolution of the TTx registers is not sufficient to install any other type of caching on the chip memory then. Thou shalt not play with the MMU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
But how the global DCACHE active bit affect the memory access?
Well, it turns off caching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross View Post
i.e if I global disable data cache, the access could be still non-serialized?
Yes, but this doesn't help you, because you cannot have chip memory non-serialized and custom chips serialized without the MMU anyhow.
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Old 07 November 2019, 17:03   #29
hooverphonique
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So given the above discussion, let's assume that the MMU needs to be enabled and have the right tables loaded for best performance and correct operation on 040/060. Is this done by the kickstart, or is Setpatch/680x0.library required? If the latter, this complicates things when trackloaded from the bootblock.
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Old 07 November 2019, 17:45   #30
ross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
Hardly, because the custom chips and cias require serialized access (for obvious reasons) and the resolution of the TTx registers is not sufficient to install any other type of caching on the chip memory then. Thou shalt not play with the MMU. <..> cause you cannot have chip memory non-serialized and custom chips serialized without the MMU anyhow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooverphonique View Post
So given the above discussion, let's assume that the MMU needs to be enabled and have the right tables loaded for best performance and correct operation on 040/060. Is this done by the kickstart, or is Setpatch/680x0.library required? If the latter, this complicates things when trackloaded from the bootblock.
Sure Setpatch/680x0.library.

So probably the best thing at cold/bootblock startup is to enable the instruction cache and disable the data cache globally and in addition disable the MMU (just in case).

At this point, however, it is useless to set the xTT registers because in the case of icache it makes no difference whether setup is WriteThrough or CopyBack since access to the bus is unidirectional, and the dcache is unused for any addressing.

Only one thing is not fully clear to me: in the aforementioned case, access to chip ram chip and custom register is guaranteed to be serialized?
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