Kid Chaos glitch

[TCD]

Originally Posted by kremiso

where i can read the note on the hol page?

It's not where, but when. The note will be visible tomorrow after the HOL cache updated.

[kremiso]

guys i did the travel this morning, really a touch n go

i think i get the missing step as soon as i have opened the A500 box (i have tried the 1.2 one)

i always keep in the boxes all the receipts, and i found a repair receipt, December 1992

completely forgot about that, there is written that the drive didnt worked, and that the repair was Denise chip;

they changed also the power supply, a light one instead of a bulky one i had

the system still boots, kick1.2 hand and red power led

tried the first disk of the game, reached ingame, and no gfx glitches as i remembered

---
now i have opened the case and made a couple of photos of the motherboard, cause im very curious of what they really did when it was repaired then

i think ill open a new thread on support hardware, cause not WinUAE related anymore?

[kremiso]

Originally Posted by TCD

It's not where, but when. The note will be visible tomorrow after the HOL cache updated.

[Retro1234]

Curious to see those photos

[kremiso]

Originally Posted by Retro1234

Curious to see those photos

can i share directly the zip folder link here?

hope to not broke any rule, and also hope it helps to solve all this

EDIT ah ok it doesnt work, i can share via pm if you want

[Retro1234]

When typing the message go to Advanced then near the bottom Attachments you can post photos.


For Zips you can just put in The Zone.

[kremiso]

zoned then

[ross]

Originally Posted by kremiso

tried the first disk of the game, reached ingame, and no gfx glitches as i remembered

Thanks, very interesting.
This A500 is really a full OCS, so the game should glitch, but it doesn't..

What version of the game did you use?

[Toni Wilen]

Thats quite strange..

8371 Agnus (OCS) and trapdoor expansion made from 4 memory chips (4 bit*4 = 16 bit data bus) which are not compatible with 8371 Agnus. 4-bit DRAMs need 9-bit refresh but 8371 only has 8-bit refresh. ECS Agnus is needed to support 4-bit DRAMs. (It can appear to work but not regularly accessed memory regions will lose data in few seconds)

Maybe some 8371s are actually almost-ECS but not fully. My test A500 has 1787 date code (week 17, 1987) 8371 Agnus and it is 100% OCS.

But 1987 sounds far too early for ECS..

Maybe it works only because the bug is timing sensitive (bitplane disable signal comes slightly too early, fix is obvious in AGA Alice schematics) and some 8371 Agnus versions work because MOS tolerances very a bit too large and some are simply slightly "too slow" but still good enough.

But this still does not explain how the trapdoor RAM can work. Unless it was swapped later.

@ross: it seems test program is needed after all..

(Still not emulation problem because both my A1000 and OCS A500 has the glitch working as designed )

[kremiso]

Originally Posted by ross

Thanks, very interesting.
This A500 is really a full OCS, so the game should glitch, but it doesn't..

What version of the game did you use?

sorry i was really in a rush and i skipped the cracktro, i had one hour to do everything

[ross]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

8371 Agnus (OCS) and trapdoor expansion made from 4 memory chips (4 bit*4 = 16 bit data bus) which are not compatible with 8371 Agnus. 4-bit DRAMs need 9-bit refresh but 8371 only has 8-bit refresh.

For sure* Maybe there are 8 chips in this trapdoor expansion (4 at the top + 4 at the bottom)? A schematic would be needed..

But the fact that the game works implies that as you say it's just a timing problem the back-to-back issue!
So that would be the case that in emulation you add an option for specific Quickstart configuration

EDIT:*[correction] nothing is certain (excluding death and taxes..), let alone how an expansion for A500 is made

[kremiso]

if can be useful i have the same trapdoor expansion in the 1.3 model

my cousin bought that back in the day, 2 pieces

[amilo3438]

@kremiso

The question that interests me is whether you tested the same version of the game on the real Amiga as the one on the WinUAE? (same game image?)

[ross]

Originally Posted by kremiso

if can be useful i have the same trapdoor expansion in the 1.3 model

my cousin bought that back in the day, 2 pieces

Well, if this is truly an expansion with only 4 chips we need to understand how they made it work
Don't you remember if there were other memory chips on the other side?
Do you remember if it was sold as a 1MB expansion? (for A500+ too.. maybe..)

[kremiso]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

@kremiso

The question that interests me is whether you tested the same version of the game on the real Amiga as the one on the WinUAE? (same game image?)

hi
all the disks in the Tosec lead to the glitch if runned on a OCS system in WinUAE

also the two demo

i havent checked what exactly copy i have at home, not original for sure and trained

as soon as i read the repair receipt i was thinking at something inherent on that regard

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by kremiso

i havent checked what exactly copy i have at home, not original for sure and trained

Hmm, if it's not original, maybe you could make an .adf image of that version that works on a real OCS machine so that it can be checked on the emulator as well !?

EDIT: Also, does the disks from the Tosec also glitch on your real Amiga !?

[ross]

Originally Posted by kremiso

hi
all the disks in the Tosec lead to the glitch if runned on a OCS system in WinUAE

also the two demo

If, as suggested by Toni, it is a signal timing problem there is very little that can be done: the game may or may not glitch on your OCS system.
It may or may not work better on some motherboard revisions.
Unfortunately, very in-depth tests would need to be executed (even with different revisions of the same chip) because the chipset you showed in the photos are very normal and common OCS.

Unless in fact there is a patched version of the game, but apparently this is not the case.

[kremiso]

Originally Posted by ross

Well, if this is truly an expansion with only 4 chips we need to understand how they made it work
Don't you remember if there were other memory chips on the other side?
Do you remember if it was sold as a 1MB expansion? (for A500+ too.. maybe..)

my cousin was the tech expert bitd, he ordered the expansions via magazine telephone order, some North Italy shop for sure.
taken from Kappa probably, he was Kappa reader

i dont know if there are other chips on the other side
i dont think about the 1MB, and the A500+ wasnt there yet, he bought those very early

[kremiso]

Originally Posted by ross

Unless in fact there is a patched version of the game, but apparently this is not the case.

im thinking the same, it could be related to the particular combo just here

[Calabazam]

Funny because i remember to have read that Kid Chaos is the game to playtest any Amiga for hardware problems. The game is so much demanding on the chips that it could reveal bad caps, weak RAM chips, flakey PSU, etc