If you intend to SELL Amiga games on Ebay (or other platforms) read this!

cebulba · 31 January 2009, 12:54

Due to recent events happening on auction platforms this is a follow up on the "LATEST form of FRAUD" Thread started months ago.
Unfortunately it still goes on - and some "so called Amiga collectors " still using this practice - not for their own collection but
rather to resell these games on other platforms.

1) With the permission of my friend I quote his words (changed somehow) again:

"Okay, everyone please bear with me. I'm about to rant for a bit about something that has been boiling my blood for a few weeks now.

As you've probably noticed, originally boxed Amiga games in getting rarer to get and don't pop up every often on Ebay - but if (depending on game of course) closing at high prices. That's good, it means our hobby is alive and healthy. But I've also noticed a disproportionately large number of rare items showing up on eBay... and then suddenly going away. The auctions close early, any bids are cancelled, and there was either an "error in the listing" or the item is "no longer for sale".

We all know what's really going on here. People are contacting the sellers, trying to get them to sell the rare items privately, knowing they'll likely be outbid if they try to win the auction using the normal method. So they offer the seller a price that sounds high to them, but to most other collectors would be a bargain, to convince the seller to close the auction early and eliminate the competition. The eBay term for this is "auction interference". The buyer gets the item at a discount price without having to bid for it, the seller gets what he considers a premium, everybody wins. Right?

Well, except for the honest bidders who still try to win the old-fashioned way.

I mean, nobody likes losing auctions, but it's a fact of life. Nobody wins every single time, so we learn to deal with it. I lose items every week because people who are willing to pay more outbid me fair and square. But what's worse than losing is never getting the opportunity to win. When someone sneaks around working deals behind the scenes, it robs every honest collector of that chance. It is a form of cheating.

To the SELLERS who engage in this practice:

You are being TRICKED. The only reason someone would want you to end an auction early, the ONLY REASON, is because they think they can get the item for LESS than they or other people are really willing to pay. Think about it: If their maximum was really an "outrageous" price, they could just bid that amount normally and they'd win for sure. It's the ones who think they CAN'T win any other way who are trying to con you into accepting a lesser amount.

Don't fall for it! Leave the auction up, no matter how many off-eBay offers you get. Those bidders aren't going to ignore your item just because you declined to sell it to them privately. They want that game, and they're going to snipe their TRUE MAX for it (which is almost certainly going to be more than the "high" offer they make to you). How do you know some other bidder isn't lurking in the shadows, just waiting to go even higher in the last 10 seconds? If you end your auctions early, YOU ARE THROWING AWAY MONEY. Look at "hopey" and "swmoretp", two sellers who have listed a large number of highly desirable games lately. They never end early, and they're making an absolute killing!

And don't listen to the argument about "avoiding high eBay fees". The truth is, for big-ticket items, eBay fees are not that expensive. A $150 close only costs you $4.75 in final value fees. The level of exposure eBay brings and the extra money you'll get from snipers are almost certainly worth that. Further, eBay offers some small recourse if the winner doesn't follow through, allowing you to leave a negative comment and get those FVF's back. And when you sell on eBay you know when your auction ends. When the clock runs out, it's over. Whereas if you're negotiating privately with several people, you can get counter-offers dragging out for weeks, and people not responding, and now the second-highest doesn't want it anymore... Save yourself the trouble. (God, I never thought I'd hear myself advocate selling on eBay, but there you have it.)"

and if you read the other thread as well - you see I'm right on this topic

alexh · 31 January 2009, 15:31

Surely everyone already knows this already? It's just common sense.

I mail people day in day out asking them to create a buy it now, or end an item early or close an auction and sell privately. Tough luck if you dont like it cos it works and I get items at a lower price. I dont care if you think it is fair, or if it is just or true or against ebay rules. It gets me the items I want at a price I like to pay

You'd be amazed how many vendors have an idea of how much they want for an item and if you offer above it then they sell there and then.

The main problem is that eBay does not work very well. It's is not a true auction because bidding does not extend the length of the auction. The "auto maximum bid" system doesnt really work (for the buyer) because given the lengths of the auctions, and the "just one more €" bidding fever it creates, has meant a buyer who bids sensibly early on can almost never win. Someone, somewhere, always has more money than you. To counter-act this everyone now waits until the very end to bid sensibly because that way they have a greater chance of winning at a lower price because other users have no time in which to increase their bids with bidding fever. I hate snipe bidding (mainly cos I am no good at it) but it is a tried and trusted method. I find it is far easier to make a private offer up front.

If ebay made it so that each bid added 10 minutes to each auction then it would work so much better.

skateblind · 24 June 2009, 16:12

Sorry to bring an old thread up, but I am absolutely disgusted by alexh. He/She was complaining about ebay prices being too high, meanwhile he/she has been doing under handed tactics to get what he/she wanted. Ebay has become popular because of the way it works and how well it is maintained/run, if they had tried it your way, they probably would have not become the leading online auction site.

Go to any live auction in person and you will see it is exactly the same as the way they do it....

Photon · 24 June 2009, 17:53

Well, it's against eBay rules. Take a PrintScreen when you have the winning bid (showing the conditions of sale before it was taken down), and report the seller on the eBay forums.

chiark · 24 June 2009, 18:21

It's called playing the game. :shrug:

I don't quite see how you can be disgusted that someone is complaining ebay prices are too high, and the same person has a tactic to try and get things cheaper through ebay. To me that shows there's a problem that has a solution?

ebay won't care as long as they get their pound of flesh. The seller won't care because they've got the price they wanted. The buyer is happy. The prospective buyer is left kicking themselves, and thinking, "next time I'll ask if there's a buy it now price".

skateblind · 24 June 2009, 18:49

Because we all have to deal with the high prices, but some people would rather kick everyone else in the teeth and skirt round the rules.

Umm, ebay do care otherwise there wouldn't be rules against it and they will act if they see it or get told about it.

Chiark, do you use these methods to get what you want and don't give a shit about all the other amiga users out there?

chiark · 24 June 2009, 23:04

eBay really honestly couldn't give a stuff. As a seller, I've done it for people and as a buyer I've done the same. I did it last week... But I paid a premium for the privilege!

I don't think I've ever done it on amiga stuff, but I would. Not to kick others in the teeth (nothing like making a debate emotional!) but rather to buy something at a fair price without messing around with last minute sniping... Now sniping and the fixed end time is the "real" problem Imho!

skateblind · 24 June 2009, 23:21

Sorry if I got emotional. O_o

Ebay works just like a real auction, except for the ability to stop your auction, which is fine, but a valid reason should be given and imho, stopping it so someone else can 'steal' it from the rest of us, is not a valid reason.
You can't go to a live auction in person and ask the seller half-way through if they could stop the auction. Don't put it up for auction if you don't plan to auction it, put it as a buy it now or best offer. Otherwise, go sell it somewhere else.

chiark · 24 June 2009, 23:56

No, true, but real auctions don't end at a fixed time, and don't get the last minute insanity of eBay: offering to buy it now avoids that.

I don't agree it's stealing: it's offering to complete a transaction in a mutually acceptable way. As a seller, I don't cancel bids to sell like this, and as a buyer I only offer to buy when I'm the highest bidder. That's how I justify it...

Thanks for removing the emotion - makes the conversation easier!

Sensi · 25 June 2009, 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiark

Now sniping and the fixed end time is the "real" problem Imho!

There is no difference between making a bid 4 days before the end of the auction or 10 secs before the end of the auction.
And its not against any rules.

On the other hand, if someone breaks the rules, he takes responsibility for the consequences and its up to him/her.

chiark · 25 June 2009, 14:13

But agreeing to end early and sell to the highest bidder isn't against the rules... If it were against the rules, ebay wouldn't offer it as an option!

Sensi · 25 June 2009, 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiark

But agreeing to end early and sell to the highest bidder isn't against the rules... If it were against the rules, ebay wouldn't offer it as an option!

But its not "close an auction and sell it privately"

I dont care, do what you wanna do, I dont sell games, I dont buy them, its just my point of view.

seuden · 25 June 2009, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiark

But agreeing to end early and sell to the highest bidder isn't against the rules... If it were against the rules, ebay wouldn't offer it as an option!

It's not closing to sell to the highest bidder tho is it? How do you know they're gonna be the highest bidder unless you let the auction run it's course?

chiark · 25 June 2009, 17:36

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/end_early.html

Quote:

Note: It is acceptable for sellers to end a listing early and sell an item to the highest bidder at their current bid price. Bidders are permitted to contact sellers with requests to end a listing early for this reason; however, sellers are under no obligation to do so. To end a listing and sell to the current high bidder (at their current high bid), go to the End My Listing Early form and select "Sell to the high bidder".

I normally offer an incentive to the seller to close early: typically, I'll drop them a message saying I'm the highest bidder and ask if there's a buy it now price for the item. If yes, I'll consider their offer.

To close an auction and sell privately is a different matter, and that is arguably against ebay rules. I personally don't do that for people (and yes, I've been asked), and I wouldn't expect it of sellers.

seuden · 25 June 2009, 17:41

Thanks for the info chiark

rare_j · 25 June 2009, 22:53

As a buyer, it is annoying. A while ago I was watching an N64 game I particularly wanted to play going for £6.00 when the auction ended. I emailed the seller, who explained that the high bidder had persuaded him to end early as there was no one else interested.

Bottom line? Express your interest. Bid early, snipe late.

skateblind · 26 June 2009, 01:07

There is no reason to close early, you will get the most amount of money for your item. The only reason you would want to get the seller to close early is probably because you think you cannot afford the price it will rise to.

There is one chap who keeps offering £10 to end early to people who are selling moonstone and as I am sure most of you know, moonstone usually sells for at least 5 times that.

It just plain wrong, end of.

Cammy · 26 June 2009, 02:33

It may be dishonest, selfish, sneaky and mean, but it's not against the rules to deceive a seller into ending an item early to avoid a bidding war, as long as you're the highest bidder. If the idiot seller buys their story and only gets half the amount the final bid would have been, it's their own stupid fault. It's a shame for the rest of us who miss out on auctions we are bidding on or watching though

Zetr0 · 26 June 2009, 05:31

quite simply...

dont use eBay...... use www.amibay.com

its not an auction, for sellers, you state a price, for the buyers they can negotiate that price.

theres no fees, its absolutely free..... and simple....

theres none of this price driving / guiding
saying something cost such and such just coz you have seen it elsewhere, is not allowed!!

clean.... effcient.... job done...

why piss-around with eBay .... join AmiBay today

Slayer · 26 June 2009, 06:37

Ya know what's funny, being an Amiga Buyer from way back when I make someone an offer it's a serious offer and more than most people would even think of paying. But some people still do not know who I am. Last week I offered a new auction in the questions about putting a buy now for $50 and I'll pay for postage.

Person replies, No, I'd like to see the Auction run its course.

It closed for $11.00

LOL

Some people think they have potential gold and greedy just because someone offered them $50. They didn't realise who was offering it... heh

31 January 2009, 12:54	#1
cebulba Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Schneiderkrug/Germany Age: 47 Posts: 251	If you intend to SELL Amiga games on Ebay (or other platforms) read this! Due to recent events happening on auction platforms this is a follow up on the "LATEST form of FRAUD" Thread started months ago. Unfortunately it still goes on - and some "so called Amiga collectors " still using this practice - not for their own collection but rather to resell these games on other platforms. 1) With the permission of my friend I quote his words (changed somehow) again: "Okay, everyone please bear with me. I'm about to rant for a bit about something that has been boiling my blood for a few weeks now. As you've probably noticed, originally boxed Amiga games in getting rarer to get and don't pop up every often on Ebay - but if (depending on game of course) closing at high prices. That's good, it means our hobby is alive and healthy. But I've also noticed a disproportionately large number of rare items showing up on eBay... and then suddenly going away. The auctions close early, any bids are cancelled, and there was either an "error in the listing" or the item is "no longer for sale". We all know what's really going on here. People are contacting the sellers, trying to get them to sell the rare items privately, knowing they'll likely be outbid if they try to win the auction using the normal method. So they offer the seller a price that sounds high to them, but to most other collectors would be a bargain, to convince the seller to close the auction early and eliminate the competition. The eBay term for this is "auction interference". The buyer gets the item at a discount price without having to bid for it, the seller gets what he considers a premium, everybody wins. Right? Well, except for the honest bidders who still try to win the old-fashioned way. I mean, nobody likes losing auctions, but it's a fact of life. Nobody wins every single time, so we learn to deal with it. I lose items every week because people who are willing to pay more outbid me fair and square. But what's worse than losing is never getting the opportunity to win. When someone sneaks around working deals behind the scenes, it robs every honest collector of that chance. It is a form of cheating. To the SELLERS who engage in this practice: You are being TRICKED. The only reason someone would want you to end an auction early, the ONLY REASON, is because they think they can get the item for LESS than they or other people are really willing to pay. Think about it: If their maximum was really an "outrageous" price, they could just bid that amount normally and they'd win for sure. It's the ones who think they CAN'T win any other way who are trying to con you into accepting a lesser amount. Don't fall for it! Leave the auction up, no matter how many off-eBay offers you get. Those bidders aren't going to ignore your item just because you declined to sell it to them privately. They want that game, and they're going to snipe their TRUE MAX for it (which is almost certainly going to be more than the "high" offer they make to you). How do you know some other bidder isn't lurking in the shadows, just waiting to go even higher in the last 10 seconds? If you end your auctions early, YOU ARE THROWING AWAY MONEY. Look at "hopey" and "swmoretp", two sellers who have listed a large number of highly desirable games lately. They never end early, and they're making an absolute killing! And don't listen to the argument about "avoiding high eBay fees". The truth is, for big-ticket items, eBay fees are not that expensive. A $150 close only costs you $4.75 in final value fees. The level of exposure eBay brings and the extra money you'll get from snipers are almost certainly worth that. Further, eBay offers some small recourse if the winner doesn't follow through, allowing you to leave a negative comment and get those FVF's back. And when you sell on eBay you know when your auction ends. When the clock runs out, it's over. Whereas if you're negotiating privately with several people, you can get counter-offers dragging out for weeks, and people not responding, and now the second-highest doesn't want it anymore... Save yourself the trouble. (God, I never thought I'd hear myself advocate selling on eBay, but there you have it.)" and if you read the other thread as well - you see I'm right on this topic Last edited by cebulba; 31 January 2009 at 13:32.

31 January 2009, 15:31	#2
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,335	Surely everyone already knows this already? It's just common sense. I mail people day in day out asking them to create a buy it now, or end an item early or close an auction and sell privately. Tough luck if you dont like it cos it works and I get items at a lower price. I dont care if you think it is fair, or if it is just or true or against ebay rules. It gets me the items I want at a price I like to pay You'd be amazed how many vendors have an idea of how much they want for an item and if you offer above it then they sell there and then. The main problem is that eBay does not work very well. It's is not a true auction because bidding does not extend the length of the auction. The "auto maximum bid" system doesnt really work (for the buyer) because given the lengths of the auctions, and the "just one more €" bidding fever it creates, has meant a buyer who bids sensibly early on can almost never win. Someone, somewhere, always has more money than you. To counter-act this everyone now waits until the very end to bid sensibly because that way they have a greater chance of winning at a lower price because other users have no time in which to increase their bids with bidding fever. I hate snipe bidding (mainly cos I am no good at it) but it is a tried and trusted method. I find it is far easier to make a private offer up front. If ebay made it so that each bid added 10 minutes to each auction then it would work so much better. Last edited by alexh; 31 January 2009 at 15:51.

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24 June 2009, 16:12	#3
skateblind Village Idiot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: UK, England Age: 38 Posts: 580	Sorry to bring an old thread up, but I am absolutely disgusted by alexh. He/She was complaining about ebay prices being too high, meanwhile he/she has been doing under handed tactics to get what he/she wanted. Ebay has become popular because of the way it works and how well it is maintained/run, if they had tried it your way, they probably would have not become the leading online auction site. Go to any live auction in person and you will see it is exactly the same as the way they do it....

24 June 2009, 17:53	#4
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	Well, it's against eBay rules. Take a PrintScreen when you have the winning bid (showing the conditions of sale before it was taken down), and report the seller on the eBay forums.

24 June 2009, 18:21	#5
chiark Needs a life Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: England Posts: 1,707	It's called playing the game. :shrug: I don't quite see how you can be disgusted that someone is complaining ebay prices are too high, and the same person has a tactic to try and get things cheaper through ebay. To me that shows there's a problem that has a solution? ebay won't care as long as they get their pound of flesh. The seller won't care because they've got the price they wanted. The buyer is happy. The prospective buyer is left kicking themselves, and thinking, "next time I'll ask if there's a buy it now price".

24 June 2009, 18:49	#6
skateblind Village Idiot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: UK, England Age: 38 Posts: 580	Because we all have to deal with the high prices, but some people would rather kick everyone else in the teeth and skirt round the rules. Umm, ebay do care otherwise there wouldn't be rules against it and they will act if they see it or get told about it. Chiark, do you use these methods to get what you want and don't give a shit about all the other amiga users out there?

24 June 2009, 23:04	#7
chiark Needs a life Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: England Posts: 1,707	eBay really honestly couldn't give a stuff. As a seller, I've done it for people and as a buyer I've done the same. I did it last week... But I paid a premium for the privilege! I don't think I've ever done it on amiga stuff, but I would. Not to kick others in the teeth (nothing like making a debate emotional!) but rather to buy something at a fair price without messing around with last minute sniping... Now sniping and the fixed end time is the "real" problem Imho!

24 June 2009, 23:21	#8
skateblind Village Idiot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: UK, England Age: 38 Posts: 580	Sorry if I got emotional. O_o Ebay works just like a real auction, except for the ability to stop your auction, which is fine, but a valid reason should be given and imho, stopping it so someone else can 'steal' it from the rest of us, is not a valid reason. You can't go to a live auction in person and ask the seller half-way through if they could stop the auction. Don't put it up for auction if you don't plan to auction it, put it as a buy it now or best offer. Otherwise, go sell it somewhere else.

24 June 2009, 23:56	#9
chiark Needs a life Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: England Posts: 1,707	No, true, but real auctions don't end at a fixed time, and don't get the last minute insanity of eBay: offering to buy it now avoids that. I don't agree it's stealing: it's offering to complete a transaction in a mutually acceptable way. As a seller, I don't cancel bids to sell like this, and as a buyer I only offer to buy when I'm the highest bidder. That's how I justify it... Thanks for removing the emotion - makes the conversation easier!

25 June 2009, 14:13	#11
chiark Needs a life Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: England Posts: 1,707	But agreeing to end early and sell to the highest bidder isn't against the rules... If it were against the rules, ebay wouldn't offer it as an option!

25 June 2009, 17:41	#15
seuden uber cool demi god Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kent/England Posts: 2,073	Thanks for the info chiark

25 June 2009, 22:53	#16
rare_j Zone Friend Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,176	As a buyer, it is annoying. A while ago I was watching an N64 game I particularly wanted to play going for £6.00 when the auction ended. I emailed the seller, who explained that the high bidder had persuaded him to end early as there was no one else interested. Bottom line? Express your interest. Bid early, snipe late.

26 June 2009, 01:07	#17
skateblind Village Idiot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: UK, England Age: 38 Posts: 580	There is no reason to close early, you will get the most amount of money for your item. The only reason you would want to get the seller to close early is probably because you think you cannot afford the price it will rise to. There is one chap who keeps offering £10 to end early to people who are selling moonstone and as I am sure most of you know, moonstone usually sells for at least 5 times that. It just plain wrong, end of.

26 June 2009, 02:33	#18
Cammy Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tasmania, Australia Age: 39 Posts: 1,189	It may be dishonest, selfish, sneaky and mean, but it's not against the rules to deceive a seller into ending an item early to avoid a bidding war, as long as you're the highest bidder. If the idiot seller buys their story and only gets half the amount the final bid would have been, it's their own stupid fault. It's a shame for the rest of us who miss out on auctions we are bidding on or watching though

26 June 2009, 05:31	#19
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	quite simply... dont use eBay...... use www.amibay.com its not an auction, for sellers, you state a price, for the buyers they can negotiate that price. theres no fees, its absolutely free..... and simple.... theres none of this price driving / guiding saying something cost such and such just coz you have seen it elsewhere, is not allowed!! clean.... effcient.... job done... why piss-around with eBay .... join AmiBay today

26 June 2009, 06:37	#20
Slayer Amiga Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: New Zealand Age: 56 Posts: 695	Ya know what's funny, being an Amiga Buyer from way back when I make someone an offer it's a serious offer and more than most people would even think of paying. But some people still do not know who I am. Last week I offered a new auction in the questions about putting a buy now for $50 and I'll pay for postage. Person replies, No, I'd like to see the Auction run its course. It closed for $11.00 LOL Some people think they have potential gold and greedy just because someone offered them $50. They didn't realise who was offering it... heh

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