Mouse joystick swapping kills power

[dalek]

I think all those mouse port pins are active low - so e.g. pressing a button drags the signal to ground. Same with the pulsing for movement I think - move the mouse while checking and you should get approx half the voltage when measuring (or check with a scope).

What are you using to power your regulator (-12V? from the ATX?) and did you add the capacitors like in the datasheet? Ian's ATX adaptor uses the same regulator and has the necessary caps.

[dschallock]

Originally Posted by dalek

I think all those mouse port pins are active low - so e.g. pressing a button drags the signal to ground. Same with the pulsing for movement I think - move the mouse while checking and you should get approx half the voltage when measuring (or check with a scope).

What are you using to power your regulator (-12V? from the ATX?) and did you add the capacitors like in the datasheet? Ian's ATX adaptor uses the same regulator and has the necessary caps.

Yes, I'm using the -12V from the ATX, and I am using 2.2uf cap on the input and 1uf on the output.

[Daedalus]

Yep, the +VID is just 5V, but is normally kept separate, presumably for noise isolation purposes. The bigger Amiga PSUs might have entirely independent 5V outputs for it, but a modern PSU should hopefully be clean enough to allow them to be linked.

The mouse port pins are indeed active low for mouse/joystick use, so they're normally set to high for reading controllers, which is close to 5V on them all. The difference between what they were reading now and what you were getting before is that they use pull-up resistors linked to 5V, so your 5V supply was perhaps sagging a little. That in itself could explain why the machine reset - if there was a small drop in power below a certain threshold, the reset circuit kicks in. But that would suggest your PSU's output was only barely enough to power the Amiga. What sort of power does that PSU supply on the 5V rail? And are you sure you're not powering the whole thing from 5V_SB on the ATX supply? Sorry if that seems silly, but I've seen such situations before...

[dschallock]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

What sort of power does that PSU supply on the 5V rail? And are you sure you're not powering the whole thing from 5V_SB on the ATX supply? Sorry if that seems silly, but I've seen such situations before...

This link has the specs to the ATX PSU I used (mine is V2). https://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=458

It says that the normal 5 volt line has max of 16A
Its says the 5Vsb has a max of 3A. I need to check what color wire that sb is and see if I used it for anything or not. If I did I should change that to a normal 5v16A line.
I also noted that it said it's -12V line is only 0.3A That is the line I use to produce the -5V pin. So I don't know what exactly that -5V is powering or if that 0.3A is vastly underpowered for its needs?
This ATX PSU I choose is a 300W supply, and I didn't buy a super cheapo one so I would hope it would provide mush more than the standard Amiga 135W model.
just a side note: The specs describe this PSU as semi fanless. Indeed it had a low voltage/low speed fan attached. Since I very much need the psu fan to cool the whole Amiga 3000 I replaced it with a faster fan and connected it to a 12V line.

Does any of that info help provide any clues?
Thanks again for your help by the way!

[Daedalus]

Well, there's certainly plenty of capacity spare on the main 5V rail, and it's good that it doesn't have a minimum power draw, so there shouldn't be any problems there either. The -5V doesn't actually power anything on the standard Amiga - it's part of the Zorro specification so it's there for Zorro cards to use if they need it, but the Amiga itself uses zero amps. It does use the -12V rail for audio and serial (and Zorro cards if they need it), but without a Zorro card using it, the audio and serial functions aren't going to need 0.3A, so that shouldn't be an issue.

With all that in mind, the only other things I can think of are that the PSU isn't connected properly, e.g. using the 5VSB line (usually purple), or creating some issue by not tying all the 5V outputs together. One other thing that's kind of a long shot, but the 3V3 lines (usually orange) should be tied together too since the 5V rail might be regulated in tandem with that output, and if there's a sense line on that rail it might be wandering out of spec. Adding a small load to that rail mightn't do any harm either. And the +12V rail should be connected together if it's a single rail supply too,but not if it's a twin rail supply.

It seems like a strange issue...

[dschallock]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Well, there's certainly plenty of capacity spare on the main 5V rail, and it's good that it doesn't have a minimum power draw, so there shouldn't be any problems there either. The -5V doesn't actually power anything on the standard Amiga - it's part of the Zorro specification so it's there for Zorro cards to use if they need it, but the Amiga itself uses zero amps. It does use the -12V rail for audio and serial (and Zorro cards if they need it), but without a Zorro card using it, the audio and serial functions aren't going to need 0.3A, so that shouldn't be an issue.

With all that in mind, the only other things I can think of are that the PSU isn't connected properly, e.g. using the 5VSB line (usually purple), or creating some issue by not tying all the 5V outputs together. One other thing that's kind of a long shot, but the 3V3 lines (usually orange) should be tied together too since the 5V rail might be regulated in tandem with that output, and if there's a sense line on that rail it might be wandering out of spec. Adding a small load to that rail mightn't do any harm either. And the +12V rail should be connected together if it's a single rail supply too,but not if it's a twin rail supply.

It seems like a strange issue...

@Daedalus You are a wealth of information, and I am very grateful for your help!
Couple of questions to clarify my understanding of what you wrote.
1) you mentioned tying the 5V outputs together. Does that mean that I should have used just one of the red wires from the ATX power supply and soldered it to all the 5V wires on the Amiga molex? My ATX had several red wires that all measured 5V so I just used a different red wire for each Amiga wire that called for 5V. Should I change that?
2) You mentioned tying the 3.3V lines together (usually orange). I didn't think the Amiga used any 3.3V lines. Does it? Also, what would put on that line to give it a little load? like a LED or something?
3) Tying the 12V lines together. I thought the Amiga only had one pin (pin 15) that wanted +12V. Then there is the power for the fan and the hard drives. I guess I am confused about trying them together.

Thanks again for all this help. When I finally have this all sorted my plan is to upload pictures and what I've learned to help the nice person trying to do this.

[Daedalus]

I mean tying the rails from the ATX connector together, so you end up with one single 5V supply, which can then be used for the Amiga's 5V power inputs. The 3.3V and 5V outputs are often related internally in the PSU, and the 3.3V rail can be used to detect and adjust the output instead of the 5V rail. Tying all the 3.3V rails together might help stabilise this, and putting a load on it might help further. An LED isn't going to be a significant load - a 10 ohm resistor might be a better option.

Same story for the 12V lines, tying them together at the ATX connector can help keep them regulated depending on the setup, and using that one collected rail for the Amiga's 12V input.

Note that you should still keep the drive connectors separate and just use them for the drives.

[dschallock]

How would I know if 2 different red lines coming off the ATX are from different rails or not? Do I check them with different GND wires or something?

[Daedalus]

If it's designed to use two different rails, they'll be labelled as such on the documentation for the PSU. Otherwise, it's a good idea to combine them. In particular, any outputs that have a second, usually thinner, wire attached should be used for providing power and linked to any others in use. The same goes for each output.

[dschallock]

Well... maybe something bad has happened.

I bought a mouse joystick switcher off ebay so that I wouldn't risk any hot swapping.
I got it in the mail today and plugged in (with the system off) and plugged the optical mouse into the mouse switcher port along with 2 joysticks. Tired powering the system on and it wouldn't power on. Tried several configurations of switching things around and it still wouldn't boot. Unplugged the mouse joystick switcher and went back to the standard config (amiga mouse and joystick combo) that worked before I tried this thing, and it still won't boot.
The power supply is coming on and the fan is spinning. The hard drives are getting initial power and make the initial sounds they normally make before crunching into the boot... but it never gets into the boot.
Also. I use a picasso IV which passes the standard amiga video through it like a scan doubler. Now that it won't boot, another symptom is that I am not getting a green light on my monitor from the picasso IV board which tells me the picasso is not getting power. If I switch the monitor cable to the standard Amiga output I do green light on the monitor so there is a signal there... but I don't get any colored light screens flashing. I only get a black screen.
I fear somehow what ever my previous issue is has now been exacerbated and I ruined something.
Any ideas what I should test or look into to see what has happened?

[Daedalus]

I really can't see what could have caused that, but it's probably related. Maybe there's a near short somewhere - under the board perhaps - that only becomes a proper short when pushing on the mouse port. And the switcher has bent things in such a way as to cause a more permanent short. You need to measure the 5V rail, both from the PSU and at the mouse port, when the machine is in that state, though try not to leave it turned on like that for too long...

[solidcore]

Just so people are aware, it wasn't my joystick switcher you bought, I assume the one you did buy though on ebay. Try strip your amiga down to bare as possible (minus the required things to get to wb) and test mouse, it's a difficult one to diagnose and unfortunately it may be simple short with a bad resistor or something far worse. CIA etc if 500.

Do you own a diagrom rom? it really does help to have one for diagnostics, if a boot isnt possible you can terminal in via serial port at back of the amiga and get the menu up on putty... nice and chucky really has put his heart into this tool! although it isn't require it is a very helpful just dont get ripped off on expensive ebay ones, I suggest checking around eab / or friends regarding getting hold of one, might be someone on here who will do you a single rom cheap.. or better dual rom very nice indeed.

[dschallock]

Originally Posted by solidcore

Just so people are aware, it wasn't my joystick switcher you bought, I assume the one you did buy though on ebay.

Correct. As I told you when I wrote you, I was and still am very much interested in buying one of your switchers. In the mean time I was trying to find something that would prevent any hot swap issues. So I bought a temporary used unit off ebay. I hope I didn't make it sound like it was your unit that had a problem.

Originally Posted by solidcore

Try strip your amiga down to bare as possible (minus the required things to get to wb) and test mouse, it's a difficult one to diagnose and unfortunately it may be simple short with a bad resistor or something far worse. CIA etc if 500.

That was the plan. I am going to check voltage at the mouse port pins as quick as possible then I'm going to start stripping in down and test like that.

Originally Posted by solidcore

Do you own a diagrom rom? it really does help to have one for diagnostics, if a boot isnt possible you can terminal in via serial port at back of the amiga and get the menu up on putty... nice and chucky really has put his heart into this tool! although it isn't require it is a very helpful just dont get ripped off on expensive ebay ones, I suggest checking around eab / or friends regarding getting hold of one, might be someone on here who will do you a single rom cheap.. or better dual rom very nice indeed.

I don't totally understand what this... a custom flashed ROM to replace my 3.1 ROMS? But it also helps with diagnosing issues? I guess I have some research to do here on this item.

Thanks for the response and the help.
This system has worked almost day for me since 1990. It's interesting how attached we can become to these old machines. Today is pretty sad day not knowing if the ol' girl is beyond my repair or not. We'll see what the tests turn up.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by dschallock

I don't totally understand what this... a custom flashed ROM to replace my 3.1 ROMS? But it also helps with diagnosing issues? I guess I have some research to do here on this item.

Yep, that's it. Because the normal Kickstart will refuse to boot unless the majority of the machine is fully working, it can be difficult to pinpoint issues. DiagROM will boot with a minimum of parts working, and lets you test individual parts with detailed results that can give you a lot of extra information.

However, if the issue is a short of some sort or similar power issue, it might not be any more use to you, as the machine might work fully and then not at all.

http://www.diagrom.com/ for more information

[dschallock]

What would be the methods of testing if something is grounded versus testing if the CIA chips have been killed? Which chips are the CIA chips any way?

[Daedalus]

If the CIAs are the problem, you'll still get 5V on the 5V rails to the various parts. If there's a short in the power rails, the 5V will disappear or drop below maybe 4.5V. I can't see it being any other lines that are shorting because nothing else on the joystick ports would cause a failure to boot like that.

The CIAs are U300 and U350 on an Amiga 3000. The schematics are available here, which might help you out... The chips themselves have the same functionality as they do on every other Amiga (bar the CD32), and AFAIK the chips are the same part as on all the non-SMT Amigas (1000, 2000, 500, 500+, CDTV).

[dschallock]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

The CIAs are U300 and U350 on an Amiga 3000. The schematics are available here, which might help you out... The chips themselves have the same functionality as they do on every other Amiga (bar the CD32), and AFAIK the chips are the same part as on all the non-SMT Amigas (1000, 2000, 500, 500+, CDTV).

Are the Amiga CIA chips (non-SMT Amigas) hard to get hold of?

[Daedalus]

Not particularly, no. But I really don't think they're the issue here.

[dschallock]

should an amiga 3000 with no daughter board or keyboard or mouse boot to an insert floppy screen? Or do you need the daughter board plugged in?

[idrougge]

You need the daughter board plugged in.