CS540 accelerator

[utri007]

CS540 is 68040 accelerator project for Amiga 500. There is a already working 68030 version of it.

Link to Polish forum

https://www.ppa.pl/forum/elektronika...-turbo-inaczej

Two CS530 videos on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZY...tAIgD5aSVOfgoA

Maybe someone who understand language could translate us more?

[Signman]

How will the case even close with that set up?

[project23]

Originally Posted by Signman

How will the case even close with that set up?

Yeah you'd have to have a re-locator perhaps even taking it out of the side-slot, i dunno. The AwesomeInferno re-locator used for the 530 obviously wouldn't be enough.

Is it opensource? The only Amiga hardware work that excites me these days is opensource hardware. These machines (The Amiga's themselves) are not able to be used on a commercial level and haven't for some time. They are hobbyist machines, and the likes of Stephen (TerribleFire) and others whose names allude me (i think theres an opensource Z2 graphics card?) have the right idea.

But hey, everyone has their own opinion and that's fine. Personally the fact that I wasted a hundred pounds on a card I can't repair because I can't get hold of the gerber files to re-print a blank PCB is not the way we should be going.

Even if the cards are opensource, people can offer to build them up and sell them for a profit. And people will buy them. Sure, nobody is building TF530's right now, but I believe thats because the market would be small owing to the low amount of fastram. When the 534 is ready I wouldn't be surprised to see people building them up and selling them for profit.

John

[8 Bit Dreams]

Originally Posted by project23

Is it opensource? The only Amiga hardware work that excites me these days is opensource hardware. These machines (The Amiga's themselves) are not able to be used on a commercial level and haven't for some time. They are hobbyist machines, and the likes of Stephen (TerribleFire) and others whose names allude me (i think theres an opensource Z2 graphics card?) have the right idea..


John

are You able to solder BGA?

[spudje]

Originally Posted by Signman

How will the case even close with that set up?

The 68040 gets hot enough, so it will create space by its own melting everything around it :P

[Paul_s]

Originally Posted by Signman

How will the case even close with that set up?

then again who'd want to close the case with such a beautiful card on show?

[Mr.Flibble]

If there's a schematic around I can always re-spin the relocator to try to move it enough to not obstruct the case - it worked well enough for the TF530

[plasmab]

What I want to know is how these things get CE marked when they’re prototypes

[project23]

Originally Posted by 8 Bit Dreams

are You able to solder BGA?

I've never tried, so obviously not at present.

But unless I'm going blind here, I don't see a bga chip on that pic?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, like. My point still stands about openhardware for hobbyist systems.

John

EDIT - Ah - I do see a BGA chip in that video of his, but that is not the accelerator shown in the attachment. Infact I have no idea what it is... It's plugged into a CS530, not a CS540, so it isn't the accelerator itself. You can see the 030 and 68882 of the CS530 in the upper left if you pause the video.

Again, either way, these hobbyist level prototypes should not be manufactured and sold like they're a fully fledged company delivering a tried and tested product. I'm not saying it won't continue, i'm just saying it isn't ideal, and i'm giving my opinion on what is ideal.

[project23]

Originally Posted by plasmab

What I want to know is how these things get CE marked when they’re prototypes

This is also a concern.

My Furia came with a counterfeit freescale CPU and three dodgy 18 year old RAM chips of unknown origin (new old stock or salvaged). Whilst this is unlikely to be a health concern, it has been noted several times that risk of overheating and resultant burning would violate the CE marking.

These things don't conform to CE marking at all, really, they're just stamped with the mark.

This is another reason why open hardware is the way to go for hobbyist systems. In amateur radio you're allowed to design and build your own equipment because it isn't intended for mass production. You can even sell it from one ham to another, because as Stephen suggested its a prototype of sorts. Try and sell it to a mass audience however, and in this country at least you'll have ofcom, trading standards and the whole shebang right up you're a$$. You'd be in for a lot of trouble never mind the loss of your license.

There's a lot of these low cost accelerators coming out of Europe lately. They're not bad, they're fantastic. But they're not sold with the legal protection and quality assurance of products built on a commercial scale like the ACA boards. Take a look at lothareks videos. It's a guy in a room at a desk putting these things together and then shipping them to either ebay buyers, or online Amiga stores. That isn't company, with liability, and assurance if something goes wrong. It is legally questionable.

I know i'm ranting here and i'm really not having a go at the designers or builders of these boards. A lot of work has gone into them and they work well, very well in some cases. All i'm saying is that designing a proprietary board, operating as a 'company' and selling these things en-masse it not a good idea.

Designing open hardware projects, and yes - selling the odd prototype privately whether for a profit or at cost - is both legal and fair to all. You know what you're getting, and if you're up for the learning curve you can do it yourself.

Isn't that what this is all about? These 16 bit systems are perfect for tinkering around with due to their relative simplicity. For me, and others, this is all a learning process.

If all you want is a faster Amiga to run your WHDLoad games quicker and more conveniently - i get it - i really really do. I don't have a solution for you, but you're taking risk when you're buying these 'out of nowhere' proprietary cards with little to no technical support. Just search these forums for how many users have had trouble with their Furias, for example, and i'm not talking 'poor socket seating' - and that's just on the English forums! At least if it was open-source, you could have a friend or a professional fix the problem for you. You would have experienced forum users able to look at the schematics and help you troubleshoot. The solution offered for my problem? I was asked to send my Furia back to Eastern Europe (forget the country, i'd have to check) for 'testing', covering postage myself, no legal assurance that i'd even get it back, and with a charge for labour despite the fact that the board had a counterfeit processor and faulty RAM chips. The response from the designer was one line, requesting i send the board back and that go to PM for more details. I'm still awaiting a response for the possibility of a blank PCB so I can transfer my working parts over from a broken board. (Long story, i fixed all the problems myself, then had a bit of an accident and bloody destroyed it. See my other posts for details).

Just - buyer beware, that's all.

John

[8 Bit Dreams]

it's BGA chip on the right!
this is video card IC
Please do not dream this will ever open source, or may i rephrase: is Wicher open-source?

[project23]

Originally Posted by 8 Bit Dreams

it's BGA chip on the right!
this is video card IC
Please do not dream this will ever open source, or may i rephrase: is Wicher open-source?

First, let me just say that the picture you show here was not in the OP nor was it in the video I refer to.

Now that 'add on card', plugging into the main accelerator, is for what exactly? Do you know? If you do, please explain. - EDIT: Sorry, missed the part about the video card IC. - my mistake. Either way, it isn't the accelerator but thats besides the point

Let me be clear - I do not want this thing to be opensource. TerribleFire has a great thing going on with a great following, and for now that is all we need.

I did a search for the website listed on the pic you posted. cs-lab.eu. Do you know how it relates to this card? Because I sure don't. I search the site for CS530 or CS540 but found nothing. I really am asking here if you know how they relate to the project, because i really can't find anything. I dunno, maybe they print the PCBs. They sure have nothing to do with selling the product as far as I can see. They seem to be in the CNC business. If i'm mistaken - again, let me know. I'm not arguing with you here, i'm trying to be rational about the state of affairs in the 16 bit accelerator market.

So what company sells this accelerator? There sure isn't one listed on the board. There isn't even contact information. I dunno, maybe it's underneath. Perhaps you can get a picture of the underside of the board from the same place you got that last pic?

As far as the BGA stuff goes. Can i do it now? No. Could i learn, and with the right equipment do it? Probably, yes. But what difference does it make? If we make opensource accelerators like TerribleFire's 530 we can choose not to use BGA chips. It isn't really relevant. I don't want this board. I want to warn others about the dangers of buying without any kind of protection or guarantee of functionality. If i, a hobbyist/ham with no professional experience, can hand fix the problems of a Furia i was sent - then what the hell kind of QA are they doing on that end? Lotharek claims 2 hours of MBR2 test with no errors. I couldn't get past twenty minutes. After my fixes, with new old stock chips, I got 9 hours (left it running overnight) - I have the pics to prove it, and it you can see one in my other thread.

What does that say about the whole process? That an inexperienced hobbyist could not only fix but track down systematically the problem that should have shown up during the QA check the manufacturer claims to do.

I don't know, maybe something was damaged in transit. Maybe static while it was handled by amigastore.eu caused the damage. Nothing is certain - and let me be clear - i hold absolutely no grudges or ill feelings towards lotharek - I am sure he works very hard and he is clearly capable and well equipped (just look at his videos).

But come on guys, where is his line manager? Where is his QA department bringing dodgy boards back to be analysed. Tell it like it is - guys keeping their designs closed source to maximise profit without any consideration for those unfortunate percentage that receive bad cards.

And 8 Bit Dreams - I hold absolutely no ill feelings to you whatsoever either. These are just my opinions, and we're just debating them. I don't want you to feel like i'm trying to argue here, because i absolutely am not. My problem here is with the state of this niche 'industry', not with the people who want to buy new and exciting boards.

I hope that's clear.

John

EDIT: One final thought - i dont want any of these things to be 'opensourced'. As you say that is never going to happen. But when your seller is some unknown dude halfway across the continent, what kind of trustworthy recourse do you have? All you can do is send it back. But not to a company with a legal warranty. Only to someone with a verbal warranty over a part that probably doesn't legally quality for such a warranty.

When my Furia broke, i naturally contacted amigastore, as they claim a 2 year warranty. You know what they did? They directed me to loratheks site, suggested i fill out his form, and then send the card to him. I'm not sure this is even legal. The warranty was with amigastore, and it should be them finding a replacement and sending it to me. It was on loratheks site that I was kindly informed i'd be paying for his services, and postage, and what not. And his videos where he plugs in a 'claimed failed board sent by user' and 'proves' it works by booting workbench for 10 seconds doesn't really instil confidence, does it?

Maybe some manufacturers are better. Maybe they're more organised and more involved when it comes to customer services. But again lets be honest - they're not manufacturers, they're hobbyists making a quick dime from their design - ignoring every bit of relevant legislation in the process.

[8 Bit Dreams]

Originally Posted by project23

First, let me just say that the picture you show here was not in the OP nor was it in the video I refer to.

it was in original topic mentioned in first post

Originally Posted by project23

I did a search for the website listed on the pic you posted. cs-lab.eu. Do you know how it relates to this card? Because I sure don't. I search the site for CS530 or CS540 but found nothing. I really am asking here if you know how they relate to the project, because i really can't find anything. I dunno, maybe they print the PCBs. They sure have nothing to do with selling the product as far as I can see. They seem to be in the CNC business. If i'm mistaken - again, let me know. I'm not arguing with you here, i'm trying to be rational about the state of affairs in the 16 bit accelerator market.

No these guys from cs-lab.eu have a serious business, Amiga stuff is just their hobby. They are doing it because they can.

Originally Posted by project23

So what company sells this accelerator? There sure isn't one listed on the board. There isn't even contact information. I dunno, maybe it's underneath. Perhaps you can get a picture of the underside of the board from the same place you got that last pic?

i think it will be shipped thru distributors exactly like Wicher card

Originally Posted by project23

I want to warn others about the dangers of buying without any kind of protection or guarantee of functionality.

Usually resellers like AmigaKit give a warranty

Originally Posted by project23

And 8 Bit Dreams - I hold absolutely no ill feelings to you whatsoever either. These are just my opinions, and we're just debating them. I don't want you to feel like i'm trying to argue here, because i absolutely am not. My problem here is with the state of this niche 'industry', not with the people who want to buy new and exciting boards.

i don't care if You do, i am not related to that project in any way
don't know much about it, just using google translate and read the forum from first post. There are two cards CS530 & 540 these are pretty same except CPU of course. there is a queue on this card already about 50 persons are waiting.

And yes, it will be redesigned to one card:

[project23]

Originally Posted by 8 Bit Dreams

don't know much about it, just using google translate and read the forum from first post. There are two cards CS530 & 540 these are pretty same except CPU of course. there is a queue on this card already about 50 persons are waiting.
And yes, it will be redesigned to one card:

Okay that's fine... let me highlight my problem with two simple bullet points:

• The supplier is a registered company with a functional RMA and QA system in place. The product has been tested to whatever local (usually EU) standards or at the very least has a genuine CE stamp.
• The board is opensource, such that repairs can be carried out either by the owner themselves or by local professionals/experienced forum members. It is clear from the onset that the buyer is gambling on the functionality of a ready made board - it is a private sale - and it is clear that the board is a non-commercial homebrew device.

Pick one.

It's as simple as that. The TF530 (if built and sold) falls into the latter, and i imagine (i'd have to research it) that the Vampire and ACA and Indivision boards fall into the former.

This influx of new cards - a lot of them fall into neither, and that is my problem. An expensive problem. Bare in mind that this card i paid 100 GBP for came with a provably counterfeit CPU. Does that sound like a supplier that falls into the first category to you?

If you want this card. If you are excited by this card, and if you are happy with the way in which the influx of cards like this are produced and sold - then that is entirely your opinion and i mean no ill will to you. Each to their own.

And one day i will solder BGA ya cheeky bloody b%$tard (joke)

If you come across any other information about this board by the way, i would be interested so do share.

Cheers, and as always - we're in this for the fun, not the fury (bloody furia )

John

[8 Bit Dreams]

Well, i do understand you, but please show me the legal distributor of the original 030 CPUs? Or 060??Most of them are rebranded china fakes, i know it well, cause i started to build TF530 cards from first day these was available, found one seller in USA who sold me about 50 used MC68EC030RP40C chips, i was very happy cause these was original and didn't needed a cooling system, but these are sold long time ago, and i am unable to find original CPUs for reasonable price anymore..so have no idea what chips these are, but as long these fakes do their job im fine with them..

[watman]

It's a WIP - with ARM processor used as a specialized chip/interface/whatchamacallit

There will be more info once the work steps further ;]

[project23]

Originally Posted by 8 Bit Dreams

Well, i do understand you, but please show me the legal distributor of the original 030 CPUs? Or 060??Most of them are rebranded china fakes, i know it well, cause i started to build TF530 cards from first day these was available, found one seller in USA who sold me about 50 used MC68EC030RP40C chips, i was very happy cause these was original and didn't needed a cooling system, but these are sold long time ago, and i am unable to find original CPUs for reasonable price anymore..so have no idea what chips these are, but as long these fakes do their job im fine with them..

You'll see in one of my other posts - i'll link it in a bit i've gotta run the GF into work in a sec - that i actually agree with you. Counterfeit doesn't necessarily mean bad. Are they going to overclock as well as the MC's? Who knows. Either way they need testing. My personal problem with the Furia is the lack of quality control. As it happens you're right - my CPU isn't the problem (i swapped it out just incase, but it didn't change symptoms) - my problem was three specific dodgy RAM chips. If the board was at the very least checked properly before being sent out, then sure - but it still doesn't cover any of the other issues i've highlighted with such 'work bench industries'. (no pun intended, lol)

The real ones are out there by the way. There was a guy on ebay selling a whole tray of 020fg25's (as on the furia) only a month or so ago, and i'm guessing the early white Furia's had more genuine and NOS chips as people seem to have less problems with them. I bought a NOS 030rp33 for my TF530 about a month ago from the states - he had a tray of about fifty, probably the same guy you bought from - it was actually bloody gorgeous to open because you could tell it was brand new. I bought from the UK a replacement 020fp25 (like on the furia) that was a genuine MC from 2000 - i asked him for the CPU mask and the date code before purchase. You put these chips side and side and its night and day. Same with NOS vs reclaimed from simms - full of scratches as opposed to spotless.

Look - i'm not saying that you can build a mass produced accelerator with brand new CPU's. Of course you can't. (Is the wicher not an exception? does that not use a still manufactured 68k with a higher clock? {it doesn't, see post below}). But if you're buying what you think is a commercial product, often from an online store, then at the very least you should be told that you're receiving a 'reimagined' CPU. It says on Loratheks site by the way that its a genuine motorola, and genuine NOS samsung chips that have never been used before. I've never seen NOS chips with scratches and pits from having been pulled from SIMMs before. Three were problematic - this is a fact - it rendered the board useless.

Bottom line - your issue with the CPUs, i accept - and indeed in my other posts i've said the same... if they work then they work. But tell the customer what they're spending a hundred pounds on. Ya know?

Most of my problem with the current influx of these startup bedroom industries still stands - the CPU issue is just an example of the difference between customer expectation from a 'company', and the reality of a product received from a hobbyist turned 'supplier'.

John

[project23]

Originally Posted by 8 Bit Dreams

but these are sold long time ago, and i am unable to find original CPUs for reasonable price anymore..

Just for the record, this guy out of the states sells originals (i bought one)

ebay link - 030

This guy in the UK at the very least sold me one 020FG25 (he's the guy i had check the mask and date before purchase, so ymmv - theres no pics, always ask first):

ebay link - 020fg25

And the icing on the cake? This guy is currently selling 14 pretty obviously NOS 020FG25's (as on the Furia) for a pretty reasonable price, what, around 7 or 8 dollars a chip?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QTY-14-MC...MAAOSw05taWGDP

All of these are still selling. Now. Today. I bought the top two approx a month or two ago.

They're out there, thats all i'm saying. I'm sure in the early days whoever was putting the Furias together got a similar deal, but then switched to or opted (for cost reasons) for the cheap ass ones from China. Again, thats not a problem if they work, but you tell the bloody customer beforehand, because for some people they don't work.

Here are the NOS chips i replaced the dodgy ones on the Furia with. They were utterly spot/scratchless and came in the original SEC tubes. He's already sold 10 and has 3 left.

They're out there. At a TF530 hobbyist level.

Are they out there in quantities suitable for mass production? Absolutely not. Which is why you wont find actual honest to god companies building these things with old chips, unless they can source honest to god NOS - not from a guy on ebay who found them in a storage room at work, but, you know, as part of an actual deal with a company that used to stock these things. And this is why we're not seeing many properly commercial accelerator cards on the market anymore.

I mean even on the 530, not a single thing is recycled from scrap or even old stock, except for the CPU and FPU. And his is opensource!

Sorry i know i'm ranting again here, haha, its nothing against you, so please take this all in jest. And its nothing against the guys building this new board either as obviously we've yet to see what their business model is.

But come on guys, either help each other build open and honest boards (for a profit if you like, no problem!) or at least get your acts together in terms of running an honest business.

John

[project23]

Okay so with the wicher i was talking out of my a$$ - its a standard 68000.

Interestingly however, there is a QFP 68k variant that both mouser and avnet are selling for around 18 dollars with a 10 week lead-in time as they're not in stock, but they are allowing minimum quantity orders of 1 unlike digikey who want you to buy six million. They're NXP (so motorola, really) and the max clock is 20mhz.

I know it aint a great option for the hobbyist, but for a commercial manufacturer looking to build a basic upgrade board for the 5/600, adding a bit of fast ram i think it'd be a good low cost seller.

They're (i think?) NRND though, so obviously thats an issue for a manufacturer. But if you're only expecting to sell a couple thousand and you can still get a couple thousand then it'd still be an option.

This is all just an aside of course - its just interesting to me that in 2018 you could build an amiga accelerator with 100% brand new components from a component supplier.

John

[lord of time]

the issue with the supply of legitimate Motorola CPU's is exactly what you have stated - lack of consistency!!! This is why FPGA based devices are the way forward!!! I would like to see somebody build an interface for a TerribleFire or Furia card that allows a FPGA dev board to sit in the cpu socket running a basic 68020 or 68030 CPU core... they already exisit in devices the MIST and MISTER. I think that future homebrew type accelorators could be designed with the FPGA devboard connection from the start... just spit balling but thats my 2 pennys worth!