Green Beret on the C16, Seriously, why why why???

[ImmortalA1000]

Originally Posted by Tigerskunk

Seeing Alpha Ray, the Plus4 seems actually really capable.

Strange that everybody chased that "poor customer" back in the day and it seems it always backfired. See the A600 later on as well.

When was the cheap but worse micro computer released after a much more capable machine ever a success?

Irving Gould finally pushed Jack out of Commodore and the Commodore 264 was replaced with the C64 priced Plus/4 and the Commodore LCD turned into the feature creep extravaganza Commodore 128. What can you say? lol

Pets Rescue is really awesome on an NTSC Plus/4, and there are loads of nice 64k TED games that show it is more than a match for the Amstrad CPC and I am sure the Plus/4 could do an awesome version of Rescue on Fractalus second only to the Atari 800 port.

The TED is not crap, 16kb minimum spec C16 was a dumb idea though which ruined any chance of decent TED games. Then again the Plus/4 was so overpriced when it was meant to be an $80 retail system with a rubber keyboard what can you say about Irving Gould era of Commodore that critical
Commodore fans haven't already in the community. The TED is literally the VIC-II with just the sprites removed but you do get fast CPU to go with it and a nice 121 colour palette to play with like the first generation CTIA based Atari 400/800 computers and VCS. Never mind. TED sound is no worse than Atari 2600 or 7800 so it's fine for those sort of SFX.

[ImmortalA1000]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Commodore 16

Lets's compare the C16 to its intended competition:-

Mattel Aquarius:- 4k RAM, 38x24 text in 2 of 16 colors, no bitmap graphics, 1 bit sound, no joystick port, no disk drive port, horrible rubber keyboard. At least they had the sense to include a full expansion port, but apart from that it was dire. Amazing that a famous company like Mattel would put their name on such a POS.

Timex Sinclair 1500:- effectively a ZX81 in ZX Spectrum style case with rubber keyboard and 16k RAM. Monochrome 32x24 text, no bitmap graphics, no sound, no disk drive port, CPU runs at ~1/4 speed when the display is active. Not surprising that it was discontinued only one year after launch.

Ti-99/4A:- 16 bit CPU based on minicomputer architecture, same video chip as MSX with 2 of 16 color 8x8 tiles making 256x192 bitmap graphics, plus sprites, 3 channel sound chip, more than 16k of RAM, cartridge and expansion ports, mechanical keyboard, joystick port - and a tragically flawed design. You see, that 'more than 16k' of RAM was actually 16k of video RAM behind the VDP, plus a miserable 256 bytes of main memory (which acted like the zero page does in 6502 machines). This made loading machine code games from tape impractical without an expensive RAM expansion. To make matters worse the BASIC ROM was accessed serially, so it was very slow.

Of the 3 intended competitors the Ti-99/4A was the only one which could better the C16 (for cartridge games only, forget about tape). However it was only 'competitive' because Ti slashed the price below cost in order to match the VIC20.

Wikipedia continues...
The C116 had a horrible chiclet rubber keyboard. Only 51,000 units were sold. If that was Tramiel's vision...

One could argue that Irving Gould should have axed the C16, but I for one am glad he didn't. It was a much better machine to learn on than others in its class, and many people got their introduction to programming from it. And it's different enough from the C64 to be interesting to retro computing enthusiasts.

We will never know if Trameil could have pulled it off, but...

(Wikipedia again)
I suspect a 'Commodore 264' for $80 was unachievable, even if Tramiel hadn't gutted Commodore on his departure. The main reason the C16 'failed' was that the competition failed earlier, so it had nothing to compete against. It was then seen as wanting compared to the more expensive but more capable C64. The same situation applied to the C65, which Gould did axe (a pity, but the 'right' decision as it would have failed too - just like the Amstrad CPC Plus range failed. by 1991 the 8 bit home computing era was over).

Compared to other machines in its class, the C16's 16k of RAM was a lot. If that wasn't enough then it could be upgraded to 64k via the RAM expansion port, making it equivalent to the Plus4. Note that the ZX Spectrum originally only had 16k RAM, as did the Atari 600XL.

I think the C16 was a good machine for the price, but rather than being taken on its own merits it was seen as a cut down C64 with 'essential' features missing and an incompatible BASIC. Not being able to play C64 games made the C16 a non-starter for C64 fans. They didn't care that it was faster, or had a better BASIC, or more colors. It had to be both cheaper and highly compatible.

I think you have completely missed the entire point of the series, luckily it's all explained on Youtube by Bil Herd. Shiraz Shivji pulled out the Timex computer and told Bil Herd Commodore were doing the TED project (looked same as Plus/4 except no shit software built in and a Mattel Aquarius type keyboard) prototype he worked to sell for $49.99 retail to wipe out such machines. That is what the 16kb Commodore TED machine was for, a rival to the ZX81/Timex. The 64k Commodore 264 was going to be $79. Everything after that is Irving Gould, including the Plus/4 costing the same as the C64.

16kb is not enough memory, you end up with simple VCS style games and it's impossible to do games like Green Beret properly with less than about 48k-64k. You can't do games like Commando, Ghosts n Goblins, Green Beret with 16kb. If you check out 64kb TED based games like Pets Rescue you will see the problem is memory not TED, that was my whole point.

The Commodore 16 was for mugs, if you bought one you were an idiot, it was only £50 less than the Amstrad CPC464 and TV modulator package

Memory is one of the biggest reasons the C64 lasted so long as a viable product.

It's all explained in Bil's own words in a video with Dave Haynie in 2005 on Youtube. Watch from about 6min 50sec onward here for the TED based cockup with Irving Gould era Commodore after Jack was forced to leave while the project was just about finished.

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[Megalomaniac]

Most C16 games that also existed for one of the other main 8-bit computers were a cut-down cash-grab sadly - there was only so much you could do with 1/3 or 1/4 of the memory, even if the rest of the hardware was competitive with the main 8-bit systems.

Plus 4 owners really lost out, they got some Infocom games and Mercenary but pretty much no other dedicated games that used all the memory. The C16 couldn't do a decent Green Beret or Yie Ar Kung Fu or Commando (another glaring offender), but the Plus 4 could have.

[str0m]

Plus 4 was my first computer, can only presume my parents were convinced it was a good idea over a C64 due to the build in word processor etc! Currently looking for another one as it happens to fit in my collection

(Megolomaniac - lived most of my life in Bexhill, Hastings )

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000

I think you have completely missed the entire point of the series, luckily it's all explained on Youtube by Bil Herd. Shiraz Shivji pulled out the Timex computer and told Bil Herd Commodore were doing the TED project (looked same as Plus/4 except no shit software built in and a Mattel Aquarius type keyboard) prototype he worked to sell for $49.99 retail to wipe out such machines. That is what the 16kb Commodore TED machine was for, a rival to the ZX81/Timex.

Yep, a shit computer to rival other shit computers - that was Tramiel's design.

The 64k Commodore 264 was going to be $79. Everything after that is Irving Gould, including the Plus/4 costing the same as the C64.

So you say. But whether 16k or 64k (even at $79, if that was possible) the fatal flaw was the same- a chipset that was less capable than the C64 and not compatible with it. That wasn't Gould's fault.

16kb is not enough memory, you end up with simple VCS style games and it's impossible to do games like Green Beret properly with less than about 48k-64k. You can't do games like Commando, Ghosts n Goblins, Green Beret with 16kb. If you check out 64kb TED based games like Pets Rescue you will see the problem is memory not TED, that was my whole point.

The same could be said about many other low-end computers of the time, including the ZX Spectrum (16k) and even the IBM PC (base model only had 64k). The ZX81 had a truly pathetic 1K and yet sold like hot cakes, and users loved it! What was the difference? They were new on the market, not trying to fill a niche that had already been taken.

The Commodore 16 was for mugs, if you bought one you were an idiot, it was only £50 less than the Amstrad CPC464 and TV modulator package

CPC464 with TV modulator was awful. I'm pretty sure it wasn't even available in 1984. And £50 wasn't chickenfeed.

Memory is one of the biggest reasons the C64 lasted so long as a viable product.

Even with 64k the lack of sprites and SID etc. and other incompatibilities made the 264 series a poor cousin of the C64. To make matters worse the TED chip was delicate and had a tendency to fail for no obvious reason.

No matter how much you try to excuse Tramiel, the 264/C16 was his mistake. Gould should have just dropped it and cut his losses. Lucky for us he didn't though, because now we have another interesting machine to play with. How dull our lives would be if Commodore didn't make mistakes!

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

How dull our lives would be if Commodore didn't make mistakes!

There's a quotable statement for you.

[TCD]

Feels like this site entirely runs off it by now. (plus a bit of hand holding with hard- and software)

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

How dull our lives would be if Commodore didn't make mistakes!

Great line, also I concur with everything you said.

Still, like with every other computer, if you knew what how to tackle a machine and build dedicated games for it (so, no ports), you were able to get great things out of it, even with only 16k.

Kingssoft's Udo & Brigitte Gertz were like the masters of that machine back in their day.
Look at these games and their graphics..

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[Solo Kazuki]

@ZEUSDAZ

For me big mistake were 16kB in C16 and C116, it's too little memory amount that there is no possible to make good game. Maybe thet's why I have Commodore plus/4, which have 64kB in standard.

Check some 64kB games, especially newer ones (Alpharay, Pets Rescue, Memento, etc) and see Yourself difference.

[grond]

Splitting the platform into two RAM configurations crippled even the Plus4 because hardly anyone wrote software that would take advantage of the extra 48K the Plus4 had.

And yes, I remember Kingsoft having a good reputation for quality C=16 software. I owned Winter Events, not sure about the other titles. They are proof that typical 8bit computer quality software was possible on the 264 platform.

[Tigerskunk]

I think you can make good games on 16K with a halfway capable gfx chip.
You just need to suit them to the setup, and don't go for direct arcade ports.

I mean, somebody did a Ghostn Goblins that plays reasonably well for the FUCKING LASER VZ200.
That's on the level of a slightly improved ZX81.

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[Megalomaniac]

https://www.retrogamer.net/top_10/to...dore-16-games/

Provided your name was Shaun Southern, Jeff Minter or Udo Gertz, you could do good things with a C16 - though even that list includes two games which share their names with 'bigger machine' games but contain a fraction as much. Still, Trailblazer proves that technically impressive things were possible.

[masteries]

There are some incredible good games for 16 KB machines,
however 16 KB, less the amount needed as video RAM,
is a pretty small amount of memory:

Lava 16K for ZX Spectrum

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Don Quijote 16K

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[Marce]

Originally Posted by masteries

There are some incredible good games for 16 KB machines,
however 16 KB, less the amount needed as video RAM,
is a pretty small amount of memory:

Lava 16K for ZX Spectrum

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Don Quijote 16K

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such game don quijote is a very but very good game to be 16k only

[rothers]

The ZX81 16k can actually do proper graphics, there are quite a few games which do it.

eg.

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Pretty amazing for the hardware, very clever use of the ROM graphics.

[jotd]

impressive! I didn't think the ZX could do custom graphics.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by rothers

The ZX81 16k can actually do proper graphics, there are quite a few games which do it.

eg.

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Pretty amazing for the hardware, very clever use of the ROM graphics.

Well, that looks better than the VZ200 with its gruesome color scheme, I concur...