Critical components to open source

[wXR]

Originally Posted by michaelz

This is weird, especially since Cloanto appears to have all the rights according to the US Copyright Office.

I think there are two things to distinct here; AmigaOS (the current form with Kickstart and Workbench combined) and the classic Kickstart and Workbench. As far as I can verify without any prove from Hyperion's side; Cloanto is the owner, perhaps Hyperion has a license (as stated, they have "... an exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, royalty free license to AmigaOS and its source-code ...".

I have a scanned copy of the actual filings linked above; are there other documents somewhere else? Because unless I missed something, these don't seem to indicate anything about Amiga OS 3.1 ownership at all. And yes, clearly ROM is separated out from Amiga OS.

[wawa]

Originally Posted by wXR

Oh now that is BEAUTIFUL. Bloody well done, Vampire team!

it isnt exactly rocket science. i have aros booting on my amigas since years. i have even posted screenshots of different apps in usage, such as css browsers (amiga sdl netsurf and aros owb) on my a4000 once upon a time..

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by wXR

Oh now that is BEAUTIFUL. Bloody well done, Vampire team!

Nice for those who want a Vampire. Still not what I want on my vanilla Amiga 500 or 1200.

[ross]

Originally Posted by wawa

it isnt exactly rocket science. i have aros booting on my amigas since years. i have even posted screenshots of different apps in usage, such as css browsers (amiga sdl netsurf and aros owb) on my a4000 once upon a time..

Wawa is right, I also don't understand all this hype.
AROS distribution is very good, and contrary of what you can think is compilation friendly.
Just for fun i've tried to make a ROM and the same day I had it working on my 68k WinUAE environment (with cygwin that is not even officially supported..).

As I have already written, AROS 68k is the future.
Apollo/Vampire can be part of this future (maybe not using this 'NG-AMIGA-OS' slogan , this is simply AROS in a 68k FPGA flavour).
And the last step can be an ASIC.

What drives-out olds Amiga users from using AROS is the slowness in real systems (and no, Apollo speed is not the key).
A possible solution is to rewrites the critical modules in asm (like OS3.x).
So you can have two pigeons with a bean: olds applications/games/demos in a fast environment and all the bells SAGA/RTG/USB/TCP_stack/AHI/blabla for the new users.
Far from all these copyright issues, in an open system.

Cheers,
ross

ops..: two pigeons with a bean->two birds with one stone

[wawa]

Originally Posted by michaelz

Still not what I want on my vanilla Amiga 500 or 1200.

sigh.. it isnt meant for vanilla amiga 500 or 1200.. what features do you need with your vanilla amiga to have enabled beyond what is there and what provides best compatibility for existing software?

well, i imagine, you might want, cross kickstart compatibility for applications, say between ks1.x and ks3.x. aros provides this at lest to some extent, which is an additional feature in comparison to original. but you might imagine that it comes at a cost. memory requirement in this case. you need 1.5mb ram to be able to boot without the s-s, 2 mb to use anything effectively.

aros is currently compiled for plain 68000 but it wont fully boot there according to my tests, suspectedly due to some 68020 asm inlines. it wouldnt make sense at this point anyway, but it actually even might be possible one day.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by wXR

I have a scanned copy of the actual filings linked above; are there other documents somewhere else? Because unless I missed something, these don't seem to indicate anything about Amiga OS 3.1 ownership at all. And yes, clearly ROM is separated out from Amiga OS.

According to Amiga documents and Wikipedia, this should be the correct filing http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwe...09131622&SID=1

If you have a copy I would love to get that.

[wawa]

Originally Posted by ross

A possible solution is to rewrites the critical modules in asm (like OS3.x).

i dont think so. critical routines can certainly be solved with 68k asm inlines. there already are such inlines in certain places of aros code. however efficiency needs to be solved by wholesale structural and algorhytmical improvements.

aros is a very good field for such improvements because perticular modules are being built not separately but within the whole context of dependencies, which allows to implement and test such system wide changes effectiuvely in contrary to microoptimizing just one separate library at a time converting it to hardly maintainable and non portable platform depandant asm altogether.

[michaelz]

Latest update from Mike Batillana about the beta-test he proposed earlier;
Hello Michael,

I had been waiting for a new build, but it looks like it won't be ready before Friday.

Thanks for your patience!

Mike

[IridiumFX]

that's great news, but I still fail to completely understand why the Amiga Forever beta, apart from showing goodwill to cooperate with what's left of the community (which is, admittedly, a precious gift by itself)

[wXR]

@michaelz

PM me your email address and I will send it to you.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by IridiumFX

that's great news, but I still fail to completely understand why the Amiga Forever beta, apart from showing goodwill to cooperate with what's left of the community (which is, admittedly, a precious gift by itself)

Simply put, would you trust your car keys to a complete stranger? Or would you let them sleep in your house?

I know some people would, but others are a bit more careful. As far as I can see on this moment, we mostly need to build trust. Maybe Mike Batillana is stalling, I can't know for sure at this time. But it at least doesn't hurt to go through a few hoops as long as this only costs time for some of us and not a leg or an arm. We are waiting for 20 years or something like that? Depending on when your hope gave out when the successors failed to deliver anything one after the other. So a few weeks to a few months can't be a to big problem.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by wawa

you need 1.5mb ram to be able to boot without the s-s, 2 mb to use anything effectively.

That's just absurd.

[IridiumFX]

True, I understand and agree on that point, which I assume is the "beta" part. I may have misunderstood the other part. Is Amiga Forever to be used for native development and reconstruction/liberation/porting of parts of the AmigaOS code base, as a common development environment? I am trying to follow the thread but got stuck in digressions about compilers and all.

Originally Posted by michaelz

Simply put, would you trust your car keys to a complete stranger? Or would you let them sleep in your house?

I know some people would, but others are a bit more careful. As far as I can see on this moment, we mostly need to build trust. Maybe Mike Batillana is stalling, I can't know for sure at this time. But it at least doesn't hurt to go through a few hoops as long as this only costs time for some of us and not a leg or an arm. We are waiting for 20 years or something like that? Depending on when your hope gave out when the successors failed to deliver anything one after the other. So a few weeks to a few months can't be a to big problem.

[wawa]

Originally Posted by idrougge

That's just absurd.

mhm.. and how does 3.9 work on your unexpanded a500? is that also absurd?

[daxb]

I guess there is no need for Aros on classic 68k because you have already an working OS3 running. If many user should use it as an substitute it needs to be at least equal or better. 1-2? years ago wawa run Aros on his A4000 system and reported that it works but to slow to be usable. I fear it will never happen or at least in the near future that this change. When you target a minimal system like A1200 + some fastram + hd - what seems a good target to me if you want to attract most users - it will be more difficult. Until then the average user can`t or won`t support development. At least not enough.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by wawa

mhm.. and how does 3.9 work on your unexpanded a500? is that also absurd?

No, what is absurd is that an operating system eats up 1,5 MB of memory before it has even booted.

[Samurai_Crow]

AROS has a bulky object oriented driver system that needs work.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by idrougge

No, what is absurd is that an operating system eats up 1,5 MB of memory before it has even booted.

And in comes Windows...

It's all a matter of opinion and what you want.

In my perspective, even if the future is AROS, open sourcing the original is a good idea. Because this helps developing new hardware, kick out some bugs and maybe kicks more live in this scene.

[wawa]

Originally Posted by idrougge

No, what is absurd is that an operating system eats up 1,5 MB of memory before it has even booted.

i guess os3.9 might need about the same. os4 needs more than 70mb to boot. dunno about morphos. at least aros has already pretty low requirements in this comparison, doesnt it?

[grelbfarlk]

Originally Posted by wawa

i guess os3.9 might need about the same. os4 needs more than 70mb to boot. dunno about morphos. at least aros has already pretty low requirements in this comparison, doesnt it?

Just two questions, does Aros load a kickstart image? If it was 1MB I could see 1MB of that 1.5MB. And the question was booting with no S-S, AmigaOS4.1 uses 70MB to boot to no S-S? I find that hard to believe but I don't know how to check it since Avail doesn't really work the same on OS 4.1 does it? Sorry that's three questions.