Genlock GVP G-Lock PAL to NTSC

[VJDan]

Originally Posted by idrougge

VJDan, what exactly does your NTSC mixer do? Does it generate a signal as a stand-alone unit or does it need to be fed with input signals? If you connect it to a monitor, do you get a colour image?

Almost every mixer can generate internal signals (color backgrounds) that you can use as stable signal (NTSC in this case). This particular line of mixers doesn't even require an external sync signal for working. By the way, the mixer is working OK because I use it all the time for my rigs, connected to other NTSC hardware, etc.

Also as I stated, I tried with a Videosynth which generates NTSC signals (3trins by Gis Gieskes) -> Same results.

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Easy way to find out is testing out the Glock on the other Amiga.

I really doubt that is the case. It could just be the power going to the Glock is a problem... I note from the manual;-




Check the voltages, both on the Amiga and the Glock - really it's expecting a nice steady 5V, possibly other voltages too. You might be better off fitting an external power source to the GLock for reliable operation.

Hint for building mobile rigs - start with a set of components, arrange them into a working order (this takes most time).

THEN get it built into a suitable housing. If you try to build to your initial design, you will run into a lot more hitches and need to do more workarounds. This sounds like the approach your are using.

I have the A1200 with ANOTHER G-LOCK for testing! BUT some months ago, when I didn't have the A600, I tried all this with that machine and the results were the same. That was the moment when I decided to buy an A600: It was smaller and it has ECS and not AGA (I thought that was the problem according to what the manual states). So same green scrambled signal was the problem as it is now, but with an A1200 and another G-Lock (same model).

About the rigs, I don't really use "mobile rigs", I just put all my hardware in a suitcase/anvil. Of course, everything is firm and well ordered inside it. Then when I arrive to the place where I do my performance, I put everything on big tables and that's it

Originally Posted by idrougge

VJDan, please confirm that your Workbench and Amiga is in NTSC mode when booting. Select NTSC in early startup menu and make certain that you don't have any saved screenmode preferences.

According to what I know and tested, A600 with Kickstart 2.05 doesn't have the NTSC/PAL option in early startup (my A1200 have it).

NTSC confirmation: I think it is outputting in NTSC, at least the framerate (not the color signal because I see in B/W). How do I know that is outputting in NTSC? Because I tried to input the A600 G-Lock CVS and SVIDEO (tried both) outputs into the mixer prior to activate the genlock but with a NTSC Screen mode and I can definitely see the A600 output almost perfect, without glitches, etc. monitoring the Mixer video out. So i'm almost sure that the NTSC output is OK (in B/W).

NOTE ABOUT THE DISCUSSION BETWEEN YOU BOTH (Pat and idrougge):

According to my knowledge this machines output a mixed signal when you change the system to a system that is not the factory default. For example: PAL Amiga will output a NTSC signal in terms of resolution and framerate. The thing that they can't is to change the way they build the color information. That is the color carrier. So it will be a NTSC signal with a PAL color carrier.

The thing is that working with Genlock I think is somehow different. Why? Because if the manual says it can output NTSC signal (not the best quality) then the hardware (genlock) must do something in order to fix the color carrier problem. If the genlock doesn't do that then they will not state that it can change the system standard and give you a good signal. They will say something like "you can change the tv system but you will not have colors" or something like that.

If they state it can be changed, then the genlock does something to reencode the color carrier in order for it to be near the NTSC specifications.

I don't really know if connecting one Amiga to the other is a good idea but just because I'll not travel with both amigas and also, I doubt that someone did that in the past in order to make it work...

Let me know what do you think about all this and really thanks for being here to help!

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Uh... If that was the case, then how could a GLock ever lock a PAL Amiga signal onto an NTSC signal?

It couldn't. Ever.

Because it doesn't. Like every Amiga genlock, it generates a PAL or NTSC output signal by mixing the Amiga's RGB output with a PAL or NTSC video input signal.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by VJDan

According to what I know and tested, A600 with Kickstart 2.05 doesn't have the NTSC/PAL option in early startup (my A1200 have it).

You're right, that was introduced in Kickstart 3.0.

Originally Posted by VJDan

NTSC confirmation: I think it is outputting in NTSC, at least the framerate (not the color signal because I see in B/W). How do I know that is outputting in NTSC? Because I tried to input the A600 G-Lock CVS and SVIDEO (tried both) outputs into the mixer prior to activate the genlock but with a NTSC Screen mode and I can definitely see the A600 output almost perfect, without glitches, etc. monitoring the Mixer video out. So i'm almost sure that the NTSC output is OK (in B/W).

So if I read the above correctly, you have this connection set up:

A600 --> G-Lock --> mixer

If you get so far, you seem to be outputting a 60 Hz PAL signal. If you want to pursue that path further (sounds unnecessary since you have proper NTSC equipment you can use instead) you probably need to run the GL software and set it to NTSC mode.

Originally Posted by VJDan

According to my knowledge this machines output a mixed signal when you change the system to a system that is not the factory default. For example: PAL Amiga will output a NTSC signal in terms of resolution and framerate. The thing that they can't is to change the way they build the color information. That is the color carrier. So it will be a NTSC signal with a PAL color carrier.

If your Amiga is a PAL Amiga it can only ever output a PAL signal from its internal composite output, and vice versa for NTSC.

Frame rate is not part of the PAL/NTSC discussion — go to your northern neighbour country and you'll find that all their video equipment uses PAL but at 60 Hz and with 525 lines.

But of course, since the vast majority of PAL countries run at 50 Hz and 625 lines, and NTSC countries use 60 Hz/525 lines, as far as the Amiga knows, PAL is just another name for 50 Hz/512 lines and NTSC is another name for 60 Hz/400 lines.

But as far as your genlock is concerned, NTSC is a specific colour encoding and PAL is another incompatible colour encoding and you won't get proper colour if you feed a PAL signal into an NTSC unit and vice versa. The GVP G-Lock is rather unique in supporting both systems.

Originally Posted by VJDan

The thing is that working with Genlock I think is somehow different. Why? Because if the manual says it can output NTSC signal (not the best quality) then the hardware (genlock) must do something in order to fix the color carrier problem. If the genlock doesn't do that then they will not state that it can change the system standard and give you a good signal. They will say something like "you can change the tv system but you will not have colors" or something like that.

I have used a PAL G-Lock quite a lot for genlocking NTSC material, and the quality is not bad at all.

Originally Posted by VJDan

If they state it can be changed, then the genlock does something to reencode the color carrier in order for it to be near the NTSC specifications.

I can't recall if the G-Lock can also transcode between colour signals or just do the usual genlock thing on a given input signals. You may need extra equipment for transcoding or the G-Lock's big brother, the IV24.

[VJDan]

I tried two different setups / connections:

3trins Vsynth -> A600 + Genlock -> AVE7 Mixer -> TV Monitor
AVE7 Mixer with color background -> A600+Genlock -> TV Monitor

First case i'm feeding the Glock input with the 3trins in order for the genlock to use that video signal for sync.

Second case the AVE7 Mixer is the one who feeds with signal in order for th Genlock to sync.

None of them worked: Green and unreadable screen after rebooting. Even if I execute the GLock soft post rebooting, it doesn't work.

So you don't remember how you did to make it work when you used it? Which Amiga model you had? What was the hardware you used for the input signal you fed into the genlock? Was the GLock output in color?

Thanks!

[idrougge]

I used an A4000 with a DVD player as input and a DVD/hard disk recorder as output.

I started the A4000 in NTSC mode, ran the GL software (which resets the computer), made sure that the A4000 started in NTSC mode again, ran the GL software and selected the desired input signal (CVBS or YC).

I actually started it yesterday since I needed to test a Barco video monitor I had bought, but found that I was no longer getting the "advanced" screen of GL. Do you get that?

[Pat the Cat]

Originally Posted by VJDan

About the rigs, I don't really use "mobile rigs", I just put all my hardware in a suitcase/anvil. Of course, everything is firm and well ordered inside it. Then when I arrive to the place where I do my performance, I put everything on big tables and that's it
...
NTSC confirmation: I think it is outputting in NTSC, at least the framerate (not the color signal because I see in B/W). How do I know that is outputting in NTSC? Because I tried to input the A600 G-Lock CVS and SVIDEO (tried both) outputs into the mixer prior to activate the genlock but with a NTSC Screen mode and I can definitely see the A600 output almost perfect, without glitches, etc. monitoring the Mixer video out. So i'm almost sure that the NTSC output is OK (in B/W).
...
I don't really know if connecting one Amiga to the other is a good idea but just because I'll not travel with both amigas and also, I doubt that someone did that in the past in order to make it work...
...
Let me know what do you think about all this and really thanks for being here to help!

Wrong. BUT, one issue with using the A500, A600 and A1200 is using a good power supply which has a metal earthed shield. Using a standard "brick" for live performance or video work is not recommended.

Remember what I said about everything having to be NTSC to use the mixer?

Will post a pic later of one of my rigs, 2 A1200s, PAL mixer, screen, all in just the one case, no keyboard. It all had to be removable and inspectable for baggage checks too.

Me? Help people blow up Amigas? I'm upset. Criticism is one thing, but it should be constructive, and perhaps I am in error too, so my apologies to all.

[VJDan]

Originally Posted by idrougge

I used an A4000 with a DVD player as input and a DVD/hard disk recorder as output.

I started the A4000 in NTSC mode, ran the GL software (which resets the computer), made sure that the A4000 started in NTSC mode again, ran the GL software and selected the desired input signal (CVBS or YC).

I actually started it yesterday since I needed to test a Barco video monitor I had bought, but found that I was no longer getting the "advanced" screen of GL. Do you get that?

1) Weird: A4000 has an AGA chipset, so that confirms that it also works with AGA! So there must be something else WRONG because I tried on both A1200 (AGA) and A600 (ECS) with same bad results... This is really frustrating I'm gonna try to find an NTSC camera to see if it works with that.

2) I have the advanced screen on both Amigas.

Why do you think in your case it works and not in mine, with two different computers?

Thanks!

[VJDan]

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Wrong. BUT, one issue with using the A500, A600 and A1200 is using a good power supply which has a metal earthed shield. Using a standard "brick" for live performance or video work is not recommended.

Remember what I said about everything having to be NTSC to use the mixer?

Will post a pic later of one of my rigs, 2 A1200s, PAL mixer, screen, all in just the one case, no keyboard. It all had to be removable and inspectable for baggage checks too.

Me? Help people blow up Amigas? I'm upset. Criticism is one thing, but it should be constructive, and perhaps I am in error too, so my apologies to all.

Ok about using different power supply but for the moment I can't. Do you think that's the problem? By the way I have two bricks: The light one and the heavy one. Do you think one is better than the other?

Why you are upset? Did I say something bad to you? I'm not trying to blow up my Amigas, in fact, I have all my systems protected with UPS and Electric stabilizer.

About everything NTSC: I have a lot of hardware. When I work in PAL I use all PAL equipment. When I work in NTSC everything is NTSC (of course not the Amigas). I just wanted to use the Amiga with my NTSC equipment....

[idrougge]

So I suppose the G-lock works fine with your PAL equipment?

[VJDan]

Originally Posted by idrougge

So I suppose the G-lock works fine with your PAL equipment?

Works perfect in PAL! Just wanted to use it in NTSC because this new mixer I got is NTSC and it has so many useful features!

[Pat the Cat]

Well, viable solutions depend what system the material you are trying to display originated on.

If you want to display things done with NTSC Amigas in NTSC, then it makes sense to try to run Amigas running NTSC to display proper output.

BUT, if you are trying to display things done with PAL Amigas, but in way the mixer can use them properly, you are better off using a transcoder to turn the PAL output into real NTSC.

That way, all your anims or whatever will run at the correct speed, (or near as dammit). So, do you plan on showing lots of stuff already done in NTSC, or showing your PAL stuff on an NTSC display? Big difference.

Pic as promised, I used a lawyers/writers briefcase, lots of space inside for A1200. A600 or even A500 mobos with screens, one central power box (aluminium), plus one of those mixers, but with the control panel dismounted and brought out. I had to use extra thick wires on the loom to the console board, IDE cable was too much impedance that long.

Screen is a little Casio TV so I could click the right icons. It's an alternative way of doings things to rackmount - sturdy enough, but loads lighter to carry.

Oh, mixer was one of these. Might have been original Arizone, can't remember right now.

http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.co...ct.aspx?id=409

[VJDan]

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Well, viable solutions depend what system the material you are trying to display originated on.

If you want to display things done with NTSC Amigas in NTSC, then it makes sense to try to run Amigas running NTSC to display proper output.

BUT, if you are trying to display things done with PAL Amigas, but in way the mixer can use them properly, you are better off using a transcoder to turn the PAL output into real NTSC.

That way, all your anims or whatever will run at the correct speed, (or near as dammit). So, do you plan on showing lots of stuff already done in NTSC, or showing your PAL stuff on an NTSC display? Big difference.

Pic as promised, I used a lawyers/writers briefcase, lots of space inside for A1200. A600 or even A500 mobos with screens, one central power box (aluminium), plus one of those mixers, but with the control panel dismounted and brought out. I had to use extra thick wires on the loom to the console board, IDE cable was too much impedance that long.

Screen is a little Casio TV so I could click the right icons. It's an alternative way of doings things to rackmount - sturdy enough, but loads lighter to carry.

Oh, mixer was one of these. Might have been original Arizone, can't remember right now.

http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.co...ct.aspx?id=409

Wow! Nice Rig!! And by the way, didn't know about the "Arizona" mixer!

About my setup and the NTSC or PAL subject:

I don't really use the Amiga for animations, but rather for input/output video signals. And maybe add some logo. Everything that enters comes from a mixer, in this case, I want to use this particular NTSC mixer connected to the A600 genlock, configured in NTSC as the manual says, then output to another NTSC hardware (other mixer, kaospad entrancer... I have some options).

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by VJDan

Why do you think in your case it works and not in mine, with two different computers?

The only difference I can come up with is that my A4000 was jumpered for NTSC mode, but being a PAL Amiga, that still does not make it a proper NTSC machine due to the main crystal having a different frequency from real NTSC machines. This is clearly visible when using JacoSub to display subtitles timed on a real NTSC machine, where the timebase for subtitles will drift over the course of a few minutes.

[breech]

Does anyone know the pinouts for the custom cable? Mine doesnt have one.
Thanks

[A4000Bear]

I noticed the original poster is from Argentina.

They use PAL-N there, it's not exactly the same PAL as used in the rest of the world (PAL B/D/G/K/I).
The difference is in the colour subcarrier frequency. In Argentina it's 3.5 MHZ (actually the same as NTSC) while in the rest of the world it's 4.43 MHz. Maybe you have some hardware that does not accept PAL-N?

[RetroPanic]

Originally Posted by breech

Does anyone know the pinouts for the custom cable? Mine doesnt have one.
Thanks

Hi all, also interested in that Pinout of the 25pin --> 23pin Amiga cable for that G-Lock interface, seems there is nothing exactly written in the manual how the cable ist build. I do have a G-Lock but no cable. Need to build one myself, any hints?