AmigaOS 3.1.4 withdrawn from market after Amiga

[hth313]

Originally Posted by gulliver

That is why you need to read the court documents: one of the most solid claims Amiga Inc has against Hyperion is the one of trademark infringement, which involves selling merchandise. Between the merchandise mentioned, there are kitchen aprons.

LOL!

I do read (more like skim when it comes to all these for me rather uninteresting trademark stuff) the documents. I have little personal interest in all these Boing balls and such, but kitchen aprons... LOL!

[Gorf]

I agree that sentences do not stand alone.
Context is provided withtin the document and court ruling, and language is clear.

As many people do read and understand it differently it is obviously not that clear

What Amiga Inc thinks now does not matter. It mattered when they agreed to the settlement, and they did not dispute it. In fact they agreed and signed. That is what matters.

Sure - as they did have a different understanding of what was written down. They signed to that.
Now as Hyperion started to interpret the agreement in their way, Amiga Inc does dispute it. Before that there was of course no reason to do so.

They did not wait: in fact, one of the strongest points of Cloanto´s claim is that Hyperion included unmodified AmigaOS 1.3 kickstarts in OS4 back when it was released.

Yes it is a strong point. In Hyperions defense it was done to provide compatibility within OS4.x and was not sold separately.

Hyperion simply chose the path to what they believed was more profitable: delivering a next generation OS4 based on PPC hardware. And back then, that was a good move from a business point of view.

Then they were delusional. And as it turned out it was anything but a good business.

I dont see that profit strategy being good anymore for several reasons.

Not good anymore? A very mild way to say it was never a good strategy and now is a disaster.

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by hth313

LOL!

I do read (more like skim when it comes to all these for me rather uninteresting trademark stuff) the documents. I have little personal interest in all these Boing balls and such, but kitchen aprons... LOL!

Yes, it is laughable.

Anyway, I believe Amiga Inc has a valid point there.

A rather worthless one in regards to monetary compensation, but valid anyway.

And yes trademarks are very complicated legal stuff and they might backfire to Amiga Inc anyway:

They are restricted by nature (they are subject to a specific product/services area), and they do require certain conditions to remain valid: they must be active, the owner must actively defend their right, and they are local (only valid in the country they were granted). And then there are some other details. Definately complicated legal stuff.

So Amiga Inc may be right on this one, but how much money can you get out of this if any at all?

[Gorf]

They are obviously not aiming at monetary compensation, but list this kind of violations to make the settlement agreement void. It is all to show the court that Hyperion (in AInc's and Clonato's eyes) has not followed the terms of the agreement.

It seems both parties are "all in" now.

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by Gorf

As many people do read and understand it differently it is obviously not that clear



Sure - as they did have a different understanding of what was written down. They signed to that.
Now as Hyperion started to interpret the agreement in their way, Amiga Inc does dispute it. Before that there was of course no reason to do so.

The document is absolutely clear and simple.

Many people have their bias and personal preference to see one side or the other win the court case. But interpretation per se is not an issue for Cloanto and friends.

The issue lies in that Hyperion says in its argument that the document "says what it says", no interpretation on their part.

And Cloanto and friends say that its content does not reflect the intentions of Amiga Inc. They additionally argument that it should be invalidated due to breach of contract.

So they understand it the same way as Hyperion, but they say it does not represent their intentions and should be voided due to breach.

It is not about interpretation for them, but just about intentions being badly expressed and breach of contract (validity).

Originally Posted by Gorf

Then they were delusional. And as it turned out it was anything but a good business.



Not good anymore? A very mild way to say it was never a good strategy and now is a disaster.

Back in the early 2000's, when OS4 was being developed, PPC was still a competitive force in the desktop arena. And it was reasonable to go that route.

In the end we all know what happened: PPC for desktops died, and what was envisioned as the future NG platform, no longer had a future. They are stuck with underpowered and overpriced parts. Yes, it provides undoubtely with much better performance than any 68k counterpart, but it is a dead end too. Another niche inside a niche.

So the end result was that people did not migrate in hordes to PPC.

What happened, is that most of them left for greener pastures (PC/Mac). A bunch of them remained attached to their old 68k hardware, and a very small quantity did the PPC transition.

So the idea was good back then, but then things changed, and now it is definately not a good idea to put all the eggs in just one basket.

Now the entire amiga market is a disaster: reduced and fragmented.

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by Gorf

They are obviously not aiming at monetary compensation, but list this kind of violations to make the settlement agreement void. It is all to show the court that Hyperion (in AInc's and Clonato's eyes) has not followed the terms of the agreement.

It seems both parties are "all in" now.

Absolutely true, a sad truth indeed.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by gulliver

Absolutely true, a sad truth indeed.

Why? I think it is for the best.

The document is absolutely clear and simple.

It is clear to you and it is clear to me - and yet we understand it totally different.
No point in arguing here - just accept that different views exist.

The issue lies in that Hyperion says in its argument that the document "says what it says", no interpretation on their part.

This is already an interpretation. The opponents say it says differently.
Both do an interpretation - that is how we humans read. To understand a text we always need to interpret it - there is no way around it.

So the end result was that people did not migrate in hordes to PPC.

That was obvious from the very beginning of this endeavor - at least to me and most others.

By the time of the settlement agreement 2009 there was no excuse not facing reality.

Now the entire amiga market is a disaster: reduced and fragmented

Now?
Do you live in a different timeline?

[gulliver]

Well, then we have to agree that we disagree. :-)

[hth313]

Originally Posted by gulliver

Back in the early 2000's, when OS4 was being developed, PPC was still a competitive force in the desktop arena. And it was reasonable to go that route.

In the end we all know what happened: PPC for desktops died, and what was envisioned as the future NG platform, no longer had a future. They are stuck with underpowered and overpriced parts. Yes, it provides undoubtely with much better performance than any 68k counterpart, but it is a dead end too. Another niche inside a niche.

So the end result was that people did not migrate in hordes to PPC.

What happened, is that most of them left for greener pastures (PC/Mac). A bunch of them remained attached to their old 68k hardware, and a very small quantity did the PPC transition.

So the idea was good back then, but then things changed, and now it is definately not a good idea to put all the eggs in just one basket.

Now the entire amiga market is a disaster: reduced and fragmented.

I think the reason OS4/PPC never took off is that is was too late, people had already left by early 2000. I left around 1993.

Think about it, every 3-5 year you upgrade your computer, C= folded 1994. By early 2000 essentially everyone already had to make the choice to get a new computer and I believe essentially everyone picked something else than Amiga at that point.

As you say, PPC was in some way a viable choice early 2000, when Apple switched to x86 it was doomed.

Today the only sensible choices are x86 and ARM. The Amiga has been a disaster since the mid nineties.

[ferrellsl]

Originally Posted by hth313

I think the reason OS4/PPC never took off is that is was too late, people had already left by early 2000. I left around 1993.

Think about it, every 3-5 year you upgrade your computer, C= folded 1994. By early 2000 essentially everyone already had to make the choice to get a new computer and I believe essentially everyone picked something else than Amiga at that point.

As you say, PPC was in some way a viable choice early 2000, when Apple switched to x86 it was doomed.

Today the only sensible choices are x86 and ARM. The Amiga has been a disaster since the mid nineties.

Don't say that over at AWorld, they'll break out the pitchforks and torches. They still believe that the Amiga will rise again.....reminds me of the old timers after the US civil war parroting "The south will rise again!" LOL!

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by hth313

I think the reason OS4/PPC never took off is that is was too late, people had already left by early 2000. I left around 1993.

In deed.
Even I did the PPC transition - at least half way: with my Cyberstorm PPC in my A3000.
Phase5 was the last company that did a board with a then up to date PPC (604e) that played in the same league as x86 at the time.
After that all PPC cores in general fell behind x86 and all NG-Amigas did not even use the latest ones...

The demise of Phase5 and the failed releases of other products like the Joe-card or Shark showed: there is no market. Yet Hyperion and MOS-Team clung to PPC, and even splittet an already non-existing market into two halves, trying to sell underpowered and mutually exclusive incompatible devices as hardware-dongle for their OS.

Back than I had a glimpse of hope in form of Transmeta:
The Crusoe just came out and was quite capable in emulating x86. I was in contact with Transmeta and the engineers were open to the Idea to emulate 68k.
That would have given us a CPU equivalent to 300-400 MHz 060 back in 2000.
(faster than Vampire now)

But management wanted to focus on x86 and take the fight with Intel and AMD and were doomed of course....

[SpeedGeek]

Originally Posted by gulliver

Absolutely true, a sad truth indeed.

What other option is available here? Hyperion, has been insolvent for at least 4 years now. If the pay Cloanto for breach + infringement damages option were available I'm sure Cloanto would be happy to accept it.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

What other option is available here? Hyperion, has been insolvent for at least 4 years now. If the pay Cloanto for breach + infringement damages option were available I'm sure Cloanto would be happy to accept it.

But Hyperion is rich now! They expect $360,000 USD this year

[SpeedGeek]

Originally Posted by Gorf

But Hyperion is rich now! They expect $360,000 USD this year

Yes, I'm sure Cloanto's lawyers would "Conservatively" estimate the damages at $360,000 USD annually.

[gulliver]

@SpeedGeek

Dont worry if Cloanto, Amiga Inc. and friends see any money out of the sale of kitchen aprons and coffe cups, it will be going directly to its lawyer: Gordon E. Troy. And even then it wont be enough to cover his fees.

Both parties are suing for damages.

That is why Cloanto, Amiga Inc and friends shot themselves in the foot when they attempted several times to withdraw AmigaOS 3.1.4 from the market. And that is probably the reason Hyperion never attempted to do the same in regards to Cloanto AmigaOS 3.x.

[kolla]

Well, if I was Hyperion, I too would halt distribution of OS 3.1.4, especially physical kickstarts, till shell has been fixed.

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by kolla

Well, if I was Hyperion, I too would halt distribution of OS 3.1.4, especially physical kickstarts, till shell has been fixed.

This is the best joke so far.

Perhaps you have ignored the entire history of AmigaOS, or perhaps you have never really used it in the first place: there were some serious crippling bugs in several versions of kickstart during its lifetime. This bug is definately not one of them.

[kolla]

I am curious about long you will insist on sticking your head in the sand. It's the most dangerous kickstart bug I ever saw, if you know something more dangerous, then please elaborate.

To illustrate...

cd RAM:bla
delete #? all quiet

a script with the above will abort on all kickstarts, except on 3.1.4 where it will...

I am not concerned about my own scripts, but I do observe what others put I their scripts, and I have seen quite a few "optimistic" boot floppy startup-sequence files.

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by kolla

I am curious about long you will insist on sticking your head in the sand. It's the most dangerous kickstart bug I ever saw, if you know something more dangerous, then please elaborate.

Well, if this is the most dangerous bug you ever saw then this must be the first AmigaOS version you use.

Or worst, perhaps the only operating system you have ever used.

[kolla]

Still patronizing and joking instead of answering what I asked.

Maybe you should check what happens when you run your own 3.x to 3.1.4 update scripts when running with shell v46...