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Old 18 September 2008, 13:39   #1
Iznougoud
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Workbench disks and related license

I've noticed that now and then there are those who've somehow purchased or been given an Amiga, but doesn't have the WB-disks with which it was originally shipped. The discussions has often involved where to get these (i.e. purchase) in order not to violate the licensing rights of whatever company that's holding those these days.

My interpretation, however, is that if you own the Amiga hardware, whatever way you've acquired it (apart from theft), you also hold the license for personal use of WB, and therefore you're fully entitled to download or copy Workbench for use on that particular Amiga. Emulators such as WinUAE is of course another discussion entirely.

I'm posting this because I don't consider it fair that those trying hard to be law abiding Amiga-users should pay for something they one way or another already have payed for. Particulary since there probably aren't too many that qualify in that category after all..
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Old 18 September 2008, 13:44   #2
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And the solution for those poor souls should be? I think quite the same, but how do you think we can help them, without breaking the rules here?
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Old 18 September 2008, 13:48   #3
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Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
My interpretation, however, is that if you own the Amiga hardware, whatever way you've acquired it (apart from theft), you also hold the license for personal use of WB, and therefore you're fully entitled to download or copy Workbench for use on that particular Amiga.
Not true.

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I'm posting this because I don't consider it fair that those trying hard to be law abiding Amiga-users should pay for something they one way or another already have paid for.
They should have looked after their disks better
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Old 18 September 2008, 14:15   #4
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Originally Posted by alexh View Post
They should have looked after their disks better
I'm pretty sure I did not get ALL of the WB adf's with my LEGALLY purchased Amiga Forever despite the fact I got virtually all of the kickstart ROMs
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Old 18 September 2008, 15:28   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
I've noticed that now and then there are those who've somehow purchased or been given an Amiga, but doesn't have the WB-disks with which it was originally shipped. The discussions has often involved where to get these (i.e. purchase) in order not to violate the licensing rights of whatever company that's holding those these days.

My interpretation, however, is that if you own the Amiga hardware, whatever way you've acquired it (apart from theft), you also hold the license for personal use of WB, and therefore you're fully entitled to download or copy Workbench for use on that particular Amiga. Emulators such as WinUAE is of course another discussion entirely.
i'm sorry to say that this is a moot point:

protection of the buyer in regards to having the object he bought working in every part as intended in the license (which is agreed when buyer perfects the transactions) regards solely an object bought as new through licensed dealer, and it covers solely a period of time stated in the contract or stated by current laws, which is not eternal in any way.

this is not the case of Amiga since a dozen of years.

why, you buy a second hand tv in the flea market and then you call sony pretending it fixes it for free?

however... this has been discussed ad nauseam. the rules here are these, period.
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Old 18 September 2008, 15:57   #6
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and in the case of AF not providing me with complete copies of all WB disks? they quite clearly advertise that this is what they will sell me...

Quote:
download a CD ISO image to burn your own CD (Windows and platform-neutral content), or download the installer for Windows, including all (1.0-3.X) ROM and Workbench versions
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Old 18 September 2008, 16:45   #7
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and in the case of AF not providing me with complete copies of all WB disks? they quite clearly advertise that this is what they will sell me...
as they are the licensed dealer of the roms, you take that problem to them.
as of my knowledge od AF, the kickstart roms needed to use that package and run Winuae areprovided with AF, so what's the problem?

i do not endorse in any way AF nor i throw it down, i just say that EAB is not the place where to ask or support the distribution of copyrighted kickstarts, point which, as has been made seriously tons of times, i will not duscuss further.

i don't see any reason to discuss it further either if not to provoke silly discussions about the laws of copyrights which do not pertain to me or other mods, but to legislators, or morality, which i have not signed anywhere to become indicator of.

what? you guys are not able to use google whatsoever? or you can and have a complete collection of what is there to be found and come here to pretend the morality of it? not only that, but that there's one only way to do these things and it is, by chance, yours?
i don't give a rat ass about cloanto per se, but i'm tired of these discussions: EAB do not deals in the rights or wrongs of copyrights. ever.
and it tutelates itself by the quarrels about it.

what you can ask, as this is a forum, are info about legal ways to have what you need, or what you feel you have been not given when you were in your rights to have, which is what i've just answered by saying: bring that to Cloanto.
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Old 18 September 2008, 16:56   #8
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Originally Posted by marco pedrana View Post
as of my knowledge od AF, the kickstart roms needed to use that package and run Winuae areprovided with AF, so what's the problem?

...i just say that EAB is not the place where to ask or support the distribution of copyrighted kickstarts...
The issue is not the ROMs - it is the WB disks
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Old 18 September 2008, 16:59   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh View Post
Not true.
Interesting point. But I would like you to elaborate some. The use of, in this case Workbench, couldn't possibly be restricted to the physical disks. That would mean that you're not entitled to making backups of them (i.e. if you've made backups and lose the original disks, you're still expected to buy new disks) or - in the extreme: You wouldn't even be allowed to install Workbench on your HDD without an additional license. I consider it obvious that what you pay for is a license, not a physical object, and that license could not possibly be restricted in time or related to physical media other than the hardware on which the Workbench is intended to run. Everything else would be to confuse the Amiga with a PC (horrible thought), where hardware and OS i bought and sold separately. If you've lost the original disks and install Workbench from an ADF, a friends CD or disks, or whatever, there is no legal system in the western hemisphere that could possibly convict you of anything other than exercising your right to use an OS which you have bought and payed for - even if the original transaction has been in the form of bundled hard- and software.



As for helping those poor souls in this forum, well offer them a link, for crying out loud, or at least don't discourage them from downloading Workbench from wherever they can find it. If you've lost your ROM-chip on the other hand (if that's even possible), the logic of having to buy a new one is applicable.

Personally, I would gladly pay for Workbench. But once, in my humble opinion, is quite enough

Last edited by Iznougoud; 18 September 2008 at 17:10.
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Old 18 September 2008, 17:30   #10
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Have you ever read an original manual?
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Old 18 September 2008, 17:40   #11
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is that those stack of papers who keep the disks in the box????


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Old 18 September 2008, 17:50   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit80 View Post
The issue is not the ROMs - it is the WB disks
Amiga Forever CD > \Amiga Files\System\adf\
they are not the complete tosec collection of Workbench disks, so what? blame advertising, don't pretend it to be the word of god. still, that's something to be discussed with Cloanto.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
Interesting point. But I would like you to elaborate some. The use of, in this case Workbench, couldn't possibly be restricted to the physical disks. That would mean that you're not entitled to making backups of them (i.e. if you've made backups and lose the original disks, you're still expected to buy new disks)
not true. in the original manual, one of the things suggested is to make a backup copy of the disks, at the first chance.

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I consider it obvious...
and wrongly so: the whole informatical industry is trying more and more to transform the things they sell in house appliance with a one single purpose each one, so to control the possibility they have to dig more and more specialistic objects.
in doing so, they write longer license agreements every day.
Cloanto has not started anything in that matter.

Quote:

As for helping those poor souls in this forum, well offer them a link, for crying out loud, or at least don't discourage them from downloading Workbench from wherever they can find it. If you've lost your ROM-chip on the other hand (if that's even possible), the logic of having to buy a new one is applicable.
i encourage everybody in doing what they want with their time, i discourage in trying to disregard the rules of this board, which existing, give to you to the chance to express.
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Old 18 September 2008, 18:40   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
My interpretation, however, is that if you own the Amiga hardware, whatever way you've acquired it (apart from theft), you also hold the license for personal use of WB, and therefore you're fully entitled to download or copy Workbench for use on that particular Amiga.
Not true.
Interesting point. But I would like you to elaborate some.
If you bought the Amiga hardware from new you hold the license for personal use of WB for the version of WB that came with your hardware! In theory if you could prove purchase of an Amiga from new I guess you could legally get away with making your own disks for personal use.

Amiga sold upgrades to WB and Kickstart to existing Amiga owners. It is obvious they meant for people to BUY new licenses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
If you've lost the original disks and install Workbench from an ADF, a friends CD or disks, or whatever, there is no legal system in the western hemisphere that could possibly convict you of anything other than exercising your right to use an OS which you have bought and payed for - even if the original transaction has been in the form of bundled hard- and software.
Not strictly true, the license is non transferable so if you've bought a second hand Amiga and it did not come with its copy of WB then you'd be legally obliged to buy a replacement copy (should you want one).

But all this is mute, you can find any copy of every single Kickstart ROM image and Workbench disk image online with Google in under 10 seconds and no-one really cares. This board just has to cover it's ass!

Last edited by alexh; 18 September 2008 at 18:45.
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Old 18 September 2008, 20:33   #14
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From the looks of it, we'll not agree on this matter in the near future, but before we agree to disagree I would like to comment on your remarks.

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Originally Posted by marco pedrana View Post
not true. in the original manual, one of the things suggested is to make a backup copy of the disks, at the first chance.
My point exactly. And that suggestion alone confirms the statement that you were buying a license to use Workbench along with the Amiga rather than physical disks at the time. Regardless of Cloanto's claims to ROMs and Workbench, they can not retroactively alter the agreement made by transaction with Commodore (or holder of the rights pre-Cloanto).


Quote:
Originally Posted by marco pedrana View Post
and wrongly so: the whole informatical industry is trying more and more to transform the things they sell in house appliance with a one single purpose each one, so to control the possibility they have to dig more and more specialistic objects.
in doing so, they write longer license agreements every day.
Cloanto has not started anything in that matter.
See above. I honestly see no reason to involve Cloanto in this topic, regardless of what they've started or not - I, for one, have no agreement with them. I bought my A500 with WB1.3 in 1990, and my A1200 with WB3.0 in 1993. My A2000, with WB3.1 I bought second hand in 2000(!), hence whatever rights to the usage of WB3.1 held by the previous owner transferred to my. (With the possible exclusion of WB3.1, since I have no idea when the A2000 was upgraded), Cloanto's claims are thereby none of my concern.


Quote:
Originally Posted by marco pedrana View Post
i encourage everybody in doing what they want with their time, i discourage in trying to disregard the rules of this board, which existing, give to you to the chance to express.
Now honestly. From the looks of it, your a fair guy. Of a different opinion, but in no way stupid nor ignorant. Do you really think this is an attempt on my behalf to disregard the rules of the board? I fully agree with the rule that says no one's to promote software piracy. I am, however, advocating the opinion that downloading Workbench isn't to be considered piracy as long as the downloader has at one time or another payed for the license to use Workbench. And I am arguing this from a legal rather than moral standpoint. As for rules of the forum, of course I and everyone else are to observe them. Even if in some case we don't agree. It's up to the owner(s) of a forum to set the rules. It's up to the members to follow them. If you for some reason decide you can't, then you always have the option to leave. It's as simple as that. You don't decide to stay and disregard the rules once you've reached the age of 12
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Old 18 September 2008, 20:46   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
Regardless of Cloanto's claims to ROMs and Workbench
Cloanto make no such claims they license the software from Amiga Inc.

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Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
they can not retroactively alter the agreement made by transaction with Commodore (or holder of the rights pre-Cloanto).
Of course not.

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Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
My A2000, with WB3.1 I bought second hand in 2000(!), hence whatever rights to the usage of WB3.1 held by the previous owner transferred to my. (With the possible exclusion of WB3.1, since I have no idea when the A2000 was upgraded)
The license is not transferred unless the original disks or documentation of the original purchase was also transferred. And of course it would not include rights to use KS3.1 for A1200 for example.

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Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
I am, however, advocating the opinion that downloading Workbench isn't to be considered piracy as long as the downloader has at one time or another paid for the license to use Workbench.
But which one? You couldn't make them available legally because you could not limit distribution.
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Old 18 September 2008, 20:59   #16
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There is no way to limit that to people who can prove that they have let's say broken disks (and even then they could still fake it). I still don't see the point that Iznougoud try to tell us. Links to Workbench disks will not be allowed here, so you could only tell that they might be out there on the internet... somewhere...
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Old 18 September 2008, 21:09   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iznougoud View Post
Do you really think this is an attempt on my behalf to disregard the rules of the board? I fully agree with the rule that says no one's to promote software piracy. I am, however, advocating the opinion that downloading Workbench isn't to be considered piracy as long as the downloader has at one time or another payed for the license to use Workbench.
I've not pointed the finger sayin' you sir are breaking the rules, that not the reason of my argument.

my point is that yours is an opinion, to which you are entitled to, sure, but an opinion. copyright laws are laws.
it's possible to change laws through the channels by law itself set up to this purpose, for the people who really believe in democracy.

as for the rest, my general interest is to prevent a careless use of the board based on self righteous opinions that may damage the board: it has happened in the not so distant past, here and with a big loss of resources and work to people who was not at all involved. i'm not saying your opinion is unconsistent, even if i disagree with you, still, i don't see the point: what would you ask from EAB? to make exceptions to laws? it's not the board pertinence.

that said, as simple discussions as this one goes, the board have plenty of them, and not one brought a single practical result.

bottom line, really, i just ask you to be practical, because i'm no police officer nor lawmaker and i'm happy so
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Old 18 September 2008, 21:38   #18
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I suppose it's about time to end this discussion. For a number of reasons. One of which being the fact that the point I was trying to make seems to have been thoroughly missed. Which very well might be my responsibility entirely, and for sure is partially. But I believe it's in the nature of this type of discussions to get out of hand, at least to some extent.

As many of you have pointed out, there's no practical difference to the end result that can be made by this boards policy. I would like to stress though, that it was never my intention to argue for the board to question or even break existing laws. My intention was to express the conviction that it actually is not against any law, copyright or otherwise, to download or by means other than purchase obtain a copy of Workbench disks if being the owner of an Amiga, which I in turn base on the conviction that the license is, and in my opinion has to be, connected to said hardware (not counting upgrades, which is different). I'll leave it at that, along with an apology actually, not for this post but for my unfair assumption concerning marco pendrana's "fingerpointing" - ah well, nobody's perfect

As noted earlier. All that is left on this topic is to agree to disagree. We'll probably never know for certain anyway, given the slim chances of this ever getting tried in a court of law.
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Old 18 September 2008, 21:43   #19
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We'll probably never know for certain anyway, given the slim chances of this ever getting tried in a court of law.
There is also diff attitudes toward this case. Sweden have a more liberale laws while other country is more strict about (c)
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Old 18 September 2008, 22:01   #20
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This argument about Workbench is only going on because Amiga Inc. still exists in some form or other; otherwise, the ADFs would be posted in the Zone along with all of the other software that for some reason is considered 'legal' by this site. Ideas on copyright are somewhat flexible on here, depending on what software you are talking about.

The only Workbench disks I have seen being sold recently appear to be the ones that were sold with the Escom versions of the A1200 (Amiga Technologies version). Suppose I wanted new Workbench 2.04 disks, could I still purchase new ones and still be sure that bit rot hadn't set in?
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