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Old 19 May 2020, 18:29   #261
VladR
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Originally Posted by robinsonb5 View Post
Based on nothing more than gut feeling, I'd say graphically yes, definitely. Rigging-wise I suspect it'd have to be interpolated keyframes rather than proper inverse kinematics - especially if you're talking about a stock A1200 rather than one with Fast RAM.
Interpolated keyframes on a 14 Mhz 68020 on ~dozen quads (instead of half thousand) are certainly a realistic target. As long as it's all happening in Integer space and no floating-point nonsense or fixed-point is involved.


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Originally Posted by robinsonb5 View Post
Also, a well-made stick-man-fighters game could be awesome in its own right!
Unfortunately, from programmer's standpoint, it's still about same 100% of work as if it was a 1,000 triangle mesh. You still need full 3d pipeline and your code still needs to be able to handle generic amount of polygons and interpolate keyframes and handle clipping in a generic way.


Really, the only difference would be the visuals and performance.


Meaning, it would be kinda demotivating to exert so much effort for such visuals...
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Old 19 May 2020, 18:43   #262
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Originally Posted by d4rk3lf View Post
Between 14 (no joint boxes) to 22 (all joint boxes).
So,
22 boxes x 6 = 132 polygons (264 triangles)
Or,
14 x 6 = 84 polygons (168 triangles)

Attached image is (rough) sketch of the 22 boxes.

Edit:
And another image of rough sketch in pose, with 14 boxes.
OK, now I see what you really meant. Thanks for drawing.


I presume you would want to retain the 3D feeling of the character, right ? Meaning, all those boxes would be quads, but have full 3D coordinates, and we'd get proper 3D perspective from our camera, correct ?


22x4 = 88 vertices to transform and keyframe-interpolate. The amount of scanlines would go down drastically too. I doubt there would be even 1,000 scanlines per character, as in VF, there's 4-5 columns of polygons, multiplying the total scanline count accordingly.




Yeah, 68030@50 MHz would pull this off at 30 fps at a 320x240x16


Of course, it's still a sh*tload of coding work


I've done animated characters on PC on a ~450 MHz CPU and even with DirectX it took me ~4 months of full-time work to discover all the issues that come with keyframe interpolation, but in the end I had a codebase that could handle transition from any animation to any other animation (note, it's not as simple as keyframing from last frame of animation A to first frame of animation B - there's quite a few issues with that approach).




Are there even any homebrew Amiga games that feature 3D animated characters ?
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Old 19 May 2020, 19:12   #263
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Originally Posted by VladR View Post
Are there even any homebrew Amiga games that feature 3D animated characters ?
Robocop 3:
[ Show youtube player ]
(in this video a slow A500 - but the enemies are rudimentary animated...)

and of course:
"Tales from Heaven"
[ Show youtube player ]
(AGA - Amiga 1200)

oh and the guy in Hunter is also an animated polygon
[ Show youtube player ]
(ECS A500 - animated walking...)
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Old 20 May 2020, 00:56   #264
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Many of the old untextured 3D games run very nicely on an 060 indeed. Though some suffer from the CPU being too fast

It's more of a matter of games in the past only doing flat-shading because that's all you could do at the time. Later the zeitgeist went to texture mapping because it could give lots of detail for not very many polygons -- more "apparent" detail than you could get with more flat-shaded polygons.

Not very many games went the Sega Model 1 route of throwing around tons of flat shaded polygons with good draw distance.
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Old 20 May 2020, 09:01   #265
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Originally Posted by AmigaHope View Post
It's more of a matter of games in the past only doing flat-shading because that's all you could do at the time. Later the zeitgeist went to texture mapping because it could give lots of detail for not very many polygons -- more "apparent" detail than you could get with more flat-shaded polygons.

Not very many games went the Sega Model 1 route of throwing around tons of flat shaded polygons with good draw distance.
The idea of throwing around "tons of flat shaded polygons" on the Amiga is a very interesting one. This is something that, to my knowledge, hasn't been done before. Not in a game, anyway.

It would be fascinating to see the performance difference between a small amount of textured polygons versus a large amount of flat shaded polygons. It would also be good to see which one looked better.
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Old 20 May 2020, 09:12   #266
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Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
The idea of throwing around "tons of flat shaded polygons" on the Amiga is a very interesting one. This is something that, to my knowledge, hasn't been done before. Not in a game, anyway.

It would be fascinating to see the performance difference between a small amount of textured polygons versus a large amount of flat shaded polygons. It would also be good to see which one looked better.
Someone could probably "hack" quake to run flat shaded without textures.. easy comparison.. ;-)
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Old 20 May 2020, 10:33   #267
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
Thanks for the link. Quite an impressive overview of the DSPs efficiency in 3D transformations.

It shows that having MAC instruction is a key benefit when you are dealing with "higher detailed" 3D objects (like with 1,000 vertices and 1,000 faces). So obviously you'll need a very high clocked CPU of that era to compete with that performance alone.
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Old 20 May 2020, 11:32   #268
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I don't believe the figures on that table for a second. It shows the Saturn as being far more powerful than the Playstation in almost every area. The reality was quite the opposite.
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Old 20 May 2020, 11:39   #269
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
Someone could probably "hack" quake to run flat shaded without textures.. easy comparison.. ;-)
It's been a while, but, I'm reasonably sure that there's a console command to turn textures off, within the game. At least on the stone age DOS version.

B
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Old 20 May 2020, 11:54   #270
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I don't believe the figures on that table for a second. It shows the Saturn as being far more powerful than the Playstation in almost every area. The reality was quite the opposite.
At least they present references for their claims.

However, having several different processors to cope with doesn't mean that getting the best performance is for free. Probably a "proper" game development for the Saturn was way more extensive than for the PS1.
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Old 20 May 2020, 13:13   #271
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
Someone could probably "hack" quake to run flat shaded without textures.. easy comparison.. ;-)
I'd wager the Quake software renderer is not optimised for drawing flat shaded polygons. Definitely not on the Amiga version where it's likely going to be doing C2P, which is (AFAIK) not really needed for flat shaded stuff.
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Old 20 May 2020, 18:10   #272
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
I'd wager the Quake software renderer is not optimised for drawing flat shaded polygons. Definitely not on the Amiga version where it's likely going to be doing C2P, which is (AFAIK) not really needed for flat shaded stuff.
That's where the "hack" comes into the picture ;-)
Now, the rendering on Amiga has no real reason to be "optimized" for Flat Shading but OTOH, normally texture-less 3d games would use Gauraud shading which Quake doesn't use either.
It uses special tricks for rendering "Lightmaps" for the shadowy areas etc. Unlike later quake engines which supported multitexturing in hardware, Quake does not (mostly because it was a software renderer and the first generations of 3d accelerators didn't do multitexturing). It only draws the lightning information for whatever the camera sees.
I don't know exactly how this works on the Amiga. But AFAIK the "core" pixel rendering was written in assembly so it had to be rewritten for Amiga in some shape or form.. This part would probably differ the most compared to something that renders a flat shaded version..?
Goes without saying that a 3d world like quake map without gouraud shading or some sort of lightmaps (or vertex color for that matter) would look weird and probably fairly ugly ;-)

Regarding C2P that would depend on how many colors you want, no?
I often hear the number 4 bitplanes would be fine speed wise, but then you'd have Quake looking like some OCS game. But being flat shade maybe that isn't too apparent, it will be ugly anyway. ;-) (One reason Virtua Fighter and Virtaua Racing look good despite flatshading is obviously the amount of detail on screen)

Btw, I seem to remember people had console commands to disable textures in order to better see the opponents in Quake deathmatch (so.. cheating) but I can't find any proof of this on Youtube atm.
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Old 20 May 2020, 18:41   #273
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
I'd wager the Quake software renderer is not optimised for drawing flat shaded polygons. Definitely not on the Amiga version where it's likely going to be doing C2P, which is (AFAIK) not really needed for flat shaded stuff.
Correct. Carmack refactored his engine about dozen times and the final version is primarily optimized to mitigate the worst-case scenario at the cost of ~halving average framerate in majority of scenes.

They literally had double framerate, but because each level had few rooms where the framerate would drastically drop, they made a decision to butcher the framerate for most scenes, but the worst-case scenario became manageable.

So, disabling the textures in Quake will completely throw ~90% of the engine out of the window, because:
- no lightmaps to cache
- no textures to draw
- per-pixel cost of flatshading is fractional compared to texturing


I don't recall the exact performance drops, it's somewhere in the Abrash's Black Book, should be easy to look up if someone desires so...
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Old 20 May 2020, 18:45   #274
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Originally Posted by AmigaHope View Post
It's more of a matter of games in the past only doing flat-shading because that's all you could do at the time. Later the zeitgeist went to texture mapping because it could give lots of detail for not very many polygons -- more "apparent" detail than you could get with more flat-shaded polygons.

Not very many games went the Sega Model 1 route of throwing around tons of flat shaded polygons with good draw distance.
Which is a shame, since if you look at all the flatshaded arcade games of the era, at least on PC, we never got them.

The Virtua Racing - to me- still looks amazing to this day. The first racing textured games, that don't look like sh*t today, we gotta fast forward about a decade...

There's something neat and clean about Hires flatshading - the sharp edges, crisp objects, no ugly bilinear filter over five-meter texels...
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Old 20 May 2020, 18:48   #275
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
Btw, I seem to remember people had console commands to disable textures in order to better see the opponents in Quake deathmatch (so.. cheating) but I can't find any proof of this on Youtube atm.
Indeed. Enter r_drawflat 1 to see the difference it makes. Set back to 0 to reverse the change. It yields a substantial gain in frame rate.



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Old 20 May 2020, 18:55   #276
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
Robocop 3:
[ Show youtube player ]
(in this video a slow A500 - but the enemies are rudimentary animated...)
Thanks. Robocop looks pretty cool for 7 MHz. Enemies have few different frames of animation (like, 5 or so).

But, it's DID/ocean production - that's very far from homebrew.

Watching credits shows about ten people or so
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Old 20 May 2020, 18:57   #277
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Thanks. Robocop looks pretty cool for 7 MHz. Enemies have few different frames of animation (like, 5 or so).

But, it's DID/ocean production - that's very far from homebrew.

Watching credits shows about ten people or so
yeah ... but ocean!
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Old 20 May 2020, 18:58   #278
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Indeed. Enter r_drawflat 1 to see the difference it makes. Set back to 0 to reverse the change. It yields a substantial gain in frame rate.
Sure, not having to compute texturing helps, but that gain unfortunately still doesn't show what that particular HW could pull off, if it had a 3d engine that was designed around flatshading in the first place.
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Old 20 May 2020, 18:59   #279
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yeah ... but ocean!
I don't think I understand. What about ocean ?
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Old 20 May 2020, 19:01   #280
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I don't think I understand. What about ocean ?
let's say some people are less than happy with the gaming experience of ocean games...
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=226

(the Amiga port of Dennis is even harder and some claim it was never a full port of all levels and they made it simply impossible to reach the higher ones..)
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