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Old 14 April 2020, 19:33   #61
Steril707
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Originally Posted by dreadnought View Post
I think maybe your friends just had too much money Gradually upgrading PCs is their selling point and the norm which drives the market, at least in the gaming sphere.
Hmm, well, some of us were already working regularly at that point of time.

And I remember fairly well, that after three years, if you upgraded your setup that involved a new mainboard, CPU and usually new RAM, since the old ones didnt fit anymore or would have introduced a bottleneck.
Why would you throttle you system with the old slow and meagre amount of RAM when the new standard was around 64mb EDO instead of 16MB SD RAM or whatever it was called.
I remember keeping my Voodoo 1 card between two systems, though.
So, basically everybody I knew bought a new CPU/RAM/Mainboard ever three years, I'd say.

All of those people had Amigas before that, btw.
Had Commodore offered them a viable upgrade in the form of something like the A1200 in 1990/91 for like 1000 to 1200 deutsche Mark, these people and me included would have stayed with the Amiga.
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Old 14 April 2020, 19:37   #62
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
All of those people had Amigas before that, btw.
Had Commodore offered them a viable upgrade in the form of something like the A1200 in 1990/91 for like 1000 to 1200 deutsche Mark, these people and me included would have stayed with the Amiga.
How much of a PC did you get for 1000 DM in 1991?
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Old 14 April 2020, 19:57   #63
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Originally Posted by duga View Post
How much of a PC did you get for 1000 DM in 1991?
Well, five to six years of no tech upgrade since the A1000 made people pay a lot more for their 25 mhz VGA PCs just to make the jump and get some new tech, which Commodore wasn't able to give them.

After that getting a new mainboard,cpu and RAM combo was much more cheap.
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Old 14 April 2020, 21:14   #64
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
And I remember fairly well, that after three years, if you upgraded your setup that involved a new mainboard, CPU and usually new RAM, since the old ones didnt fit anymore or would have introduced a bottleneck.
Why would you throttle you system with the old slow and meagre amount of RAM when the new standard was around 64mb EDO instead of 16MB SD RAM or whatever it was called.
Yeah, well, upgrading some parts is not "buying a new computer" The other bits and bobs can amount to a lot. Besides you always had a choice, and lots of these bottlenecks etc were overhyped by enthusiasts, and also pushed hard by manufacturers themselves (they used to send us to seminars where you'd be taught how to lie -sorry, upsell - new Pentium instead of a Celeron) and generally unnecessary to be still in the game - whereas to play, eg, AGA games you needed a completely new Amiga.

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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
Had Commodore offered them a viable upgrade in the form of something like the A1200 in 1990/91 for like 1000 to 1200 deutsche Mark, these people and me included would have stayed with the Amiga.
In 1990/91 perhaps yes, and it maybe would've worked for another few years. But in the long run I don't see Amiga's - and all the others' - limited upgrade path & propertiary chips being able to complete with the openness of the PC market.

Best Amiga could hope for would be to carve a niche a la Apple and survive there, but then they'd have to duke it out between themselves...could've been interesting, this. Sure as hell I'd rather see an aPhone being a modern uber-gadget than the fruit one
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Old 14 April 2020, 21:17   #65
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
You are correct, Lion King & Aladdin both run in 64 colour mode.

On the topic of the status bar, it may be possible to "copper trick" that so that you can still use hardware scrolling (AGA can have quite big gaps between display fetches, so you have some leeway here). It'd definitely be possible to use sprites instead. Or think outside of the vertical box and rotate the bar to be horizontal instead
Is this what Syndicate, Cannon Fodder and Banshee do with their status panel and still get 8 way scrolling? I was interested in how this works and how the screen buffer gets set up.

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Originally Posted by d4rk3lf View Post
I had to do a quick test in PS.
(see attachment)

Now, I know this doesn't prove anything... neither I oppose anything you, or anyone else said... I just converted it for fun, and for the matter of discussion.
Maybe my point would be: Sometimes people tends to overestimate 256 colors, and underestimate 32 or 16 colors, and even a 16 colors could be crazy good looking in a hands of a master.
I think the difference is most seen at some clean gradients, and effects with shading the clouds, or some other translucent effects.
For the games like Warcraft 2 (where you have all kinds of colors scattered), I think A1200 (at least in terms of colors), should perform more then equal to the task.
Team ORCS here . Thanks for taking the time to do the PS palette comparison.
Would that be Warcraft 1 in 64 colours or the full 256?
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Originally Posted by xubidoo View Post
in 1996 , just before i sold my A1200 i had a stock A1200 with a 60mb hard disk and an extra external floppy drive, and that was it, no extra ram or accelerator.

And none of my amiga owning friends had an accelerator either, so somehow i doubt the majority had anything better than me to be honest.

Yeah i traded it all in for a 486 dx2 66 PC
But what GFX card, Hard Drive and RAM did you get with that trade as well? You need software.
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Old 14 April 2020, 21:41   #66
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I had Napalm I think was the name of the game, it was just like Command&Conquer, so that would be no problem. I had 060 and RTG though.

I would like Stunt, The Games Summer Challenge (like on 386), Test Drive III and then Grand Theft Auto, Bleifuss Fun and Revolt if possible on 060.
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Old 14 April 2020, 21:42   #67
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Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
In that case, I'm not sure that even a PPC would be up to the task. I really think you'd need some sort of 3D acceleration if you wanted a decent frame rate.
Yeah, I agree. I don't see it working without a 3D accelerator either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadnought View Post
In 1990/91 perhaps yes, and it maybe would've worked for another few years. But in the long run I don't see Amiga's - and all the others' - limited upgrade path & propertiary chips being able to complete with the openness of the PC market.
This seems accurate to me, perhaps even a little optimistic in terms of possible result.

But 1990 for a new higher-specced Amiga does seem a bit optimistic to me. Keep in mind that despite the love the machine clearly has (certainly from me), it never was all that successful in the marketplace and particularly it's early years were quite underwhelming. Which may have added to Commodore's lack of enthusiasm for trying to upgrade the hardware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redblade View Post
Is this what Syndicate, Cannon Fodder and Banshee do with their status panel and still get 8 way scrolling? I was interested in how this works and how the screen buffer gets set up.
Syndicate most likely uses a brute force approach where the entire buffer is just redrawn (it certainly doesn't scroll very smoothly).

If I had to guess, I'd say the other games probably used hardware sprites to create their status panel, which would allow hardware based scrolling to work as normal.
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Old 14 April 2020, 23:49   #68
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Syndicate most likely uses a brute force approach where the entire buffer is just redrawn (it certainly doesn't scroll very smoothly).
If I remember correctly, when my Dad upgraded our A500 in the 90s to 2MB chip + 2MB fast scrolling the map around with the mouse was much smoother.
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Old 18 April 2020, 10:07   #69
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Originally Posted by grond View Post
"Alone in the Dark" would have been perfectly possible.
i agree ! if Amiga 1200 or CD32 would have a 68030 it could handle this 3D game, with the TF330 68030 i can have mac os and alone in the dark is running
not bad, so if you thinking the emulation cpu cycles, it could run nicely.I think also about many adventure games like land of lore, legend of kyrandia 1/2 could have speech with the CD32 CDROM and many FMV games like rebel assault or megarace who were planned..............

Alone in the Dark on winuae and CD32 via shapeshifter mac emulation.
[ Show youtube player ]

At these time if Amiga's were 68030/8MO stock, it would change everything.
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Old 18 April 2020, 10:37   #70
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Originally Posted by thairacerjp View Post
Alone in the Dark on winuae and CD32 via shapeshifter mac emulation.
[ Show youtube player ]
Impressive, I've recently played Alone in the Dark on 3DO and is much slower than this one
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Old 18 April 2020, 11:19   #71
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Impressive, I've recently played Alone in the Dark on 3DO and is much slower than this one
oh really ! if the two flagships of the 90's DOOM & AITD went on Amiga it would be another story and it was on 4 floppy disks.
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Old 18 April 2020, 13:24   #72
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Tomb Raider was huge success 1996. It would have been perfectly possible with 68040/60
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Old 18 April 2020, 13:56   #73
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Originally Posted by thairacerjp View Post
i agree ! if Amiga 1200 or CD32 would have a 68030 it could handle this 3D game, with the TF330 68030 i can have mac os and alone in the dark is running
not bad, so if you thinking the emulation cpu cycles, it could run nicely.I think also about many adventure games like land of lore, legend of kyrandia 1/2 could have speech with the CD32 CDROM and many FMV games like rebel assault or megarace who were planned..............

Alone in the Dark on winuae and CD32 via shapeshifter mac emulation.
[ Show youtube player ]

At these time if Amiga's were 68030/8MO stock, it would change everything.
A1200 could easily be upgraded with 030 and fast mem, so that wasn't a problem.

030 and 8 MB in 1992 would've been way too expensive for this entry/mid level system.
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Old 18 April 2020, 14:21   #74
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Originally Posted by duga View Post
A1200 could easily be upgraded with 030 and fast mem, so that wasn't a problem.

030 and 8 MB in 1992 would've been way too expensive for this entry/mid level system.
90% of customers decided to buy a more expensive PC or even a Mac.
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Old 18 April 2020, 15:34   #75
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Well, the thing is, in 1990/91, Wing Commander 1&2 dropped.

My options to play this game were:

PC-side: Spend 2400 Deutsche Mark, for a completely new system including a VGA screen

Amiga side: none.

If they had announced the A1200 in 1990, and delivered in 1991 for like 1200 Deutsche Mark, I would have waited and bought this, since I could have used my 1084 screen with that.

Instead, all my friends who already had income were migrating to PC and I was left behind, because I wasn't able to shell out so much money. I bought myself a SNES in 1993 to have something to play. Which was cool. And a Pentium75 in 1995.

Commodore lost me and my friends in 1991, because they haven't shown new technology since 1985.
In those rapidly changing times, this was a like aeons.

You know, in the beginning you need to chase the enthusiast market, and these people want the newest tech. There are the people evangelizing your shit to all their friends, making them a cheap promotional tool.

The broader market usually follows later on.

That happened with the Amiga, and after that with the PC.
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Old 18 April 2020, 22:10   #76
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Hi, Would it be possible if you could publish your DM in USD so I can roughly translate them into NZD.

@tahairacerjp: Keep uploading those Amiga Emulation videos, as I can't be assed to set it up myself on WinUAE and I like to see what they run like

THanks
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Old 18 April 2020, 22:44   #77
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Well, the thing is, in 1990/91, Wing Commander 1&2 dropped.
I didn't even own an Amiga (A500) until December '91
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Old 20 April 2020, 16:52   #78
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The Amiga should have had Dune 2.

Hold it, do not hit that quick reply button!

Yes I know it had "a" Dune 2, but it didn't have the rich PC version of Dune 2 which sports some of my favorite game music. The Amiga version should have had Amiga versions of those tunes because they would have been completely awesome.

I thing hard to achieve with a game that comes on six disks and needs like 20 swaps to even get to play it I guess Still... I felt robbed.
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Old 20 April 2020, 19:36   #79
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The Amiga should have had Dune 2.

Hold it, do not hit that quick reply button!

Yes I know it had "a" Dune 2, but it didn't have the rich PC version of Dune 2 which sports some of my favorite game music. The Amiga version should have had Amiga versions of those tunes because they would have been completely awesome.

I thing hard to achieve with a game that comes on six disks and needs like 20 swaps to even get to play it I guess Still... I felt robbed.
Dune 2 should have had different versions for those who had hard drive and those wants to play it from disk.
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Old 23 April 2020, 11:06   #80
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Or maybe a CD32 version with CD audio and whatever fancy bits and bobs it could support.
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