English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Retrogaming General Discussion

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 18 August 2019, 10:27   #1
drHirudo
Amiga user
drHirudo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sofia / Bulgaria
Posts: 210
Stardust is the first game to use pre-rendered 3D graphics?

While searching for some information about Silicon Graphics, I came to this on Wikipedia:

Quote:
Donkey Kong Country is one of the first games for a mainstream home video game console to use pre-rendered 3D graphics,[14] a technique used in the earlier 1993 Finnish game Stardust for the Amiga, and later in Rare's Killer Instinct
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey_Kong_Country

Is it true?

I remember around 1994 pre-rendered 3D sprites started to appear in games for example in the racing isometric game Skidmarks, also in Syndicate and many other games.

But Stardust seems to be the first one to have pre-rendered graphics. It looks like they used Amiga Imagine and did it in late 1992, when the hardware wasn't that powerful for complex 3D rendered graphics.
drHirudo is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 10:54   #2
Foebane
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cardiff, UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,794
Well, there's no way in HELL that the Stardust graphics are hand-drawn, that's for sure!
Foebane is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 10:58   #3
britelite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Espoo / Finland
Posts: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
Well, there's no way in HELL that the Stardust graphics are hand-drawn, that's for sure!
And nobody is claiming that either...
britelite is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 11:09   #4
jPV
Registered User
jPV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: RNO
Posts: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by drHirudo View Post
But Stardust seems to be the first one to have pre-rendered graphics. It looks like they used Amiga Imagine and did it in late 1992, when the hardware wasn't that powerful for complex 3D rendered graphics.
They did render the graphics with Real3D (also a Finnish program), with Amiga 4000 setup(s) IIRC.

But funny if it really was the first game using pre-rendered 3D graphics... somehow hard to believe it wouldn't have been done earlier.
jPV is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 11:28   #5
d4rk3lf
Registered User

d4rk3lf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia
Posts: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
Well, there's no way in HELL that the Stardust graphics are hand-drawn, that's for sure!
It can be done using "one point perspective" drawing principle, but it would be a lot of manual job, and measuring, even it's only a couple of frames.
So yes, they used 3D app to create this, because it's so much faster, and they could try various different graphics, very fast.

[ Show youtube player ]
d4rk3lf is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 11:51   #6
Seiya
Registered User

Seiya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Italy
Posts: 963
i found this great review about Stardust
http://codetapper.com/amiga/sprite-tricks/stardust/
Seiya is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 14:40   #7
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 46
Posts: 7,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by drHirudo View Post
While searching for some information about Silicon Graphics, I came to this on Wikipedia:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey_Kong_Country

Is it true?

I remember around 1994 pre-rendered 3D sprites started to appear in games for example in the racing isometric game Skidmarks, also in Syndicate and many other games.

But Stardust seems to be the first one to have pre-rendered graphics. It looks like they used Amiga Imagine and did it in late 1992, when the hardware wasn't that powerful for complex 3D rendered graphics.
No. Psygnosis were first if you include their intros.

The Killing Game Show, Nitro, Awesome. All use rendered graphics for the intros.
Galahad/FLT is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 14:58   #8
Steve
Truth seeker...
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Age: 41
Posts: 2,268
This is quite interesting because I always thought Skidmarks was the first game to use pre-rendered sprites. I'm not sure which came first but they are around the same time. Both Skidmarks (Imagine rendered vehicles) and Stardust were reviewed in the same Amiga Format issue. Actually the first issue of any Amiga magazine I ever bought.

http://amr.abime.net/issue_211_pages
Steve is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 15:01   #9
Cubemon
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Underground
Posts: 24
At least Blasteroids used pre-rendered 3D sprites in 1987.

[ Show youtube player ]

Mukor rules all galaxies.
Cubemon is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 17:14   #10
Cherno
Registered User
Cherno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dortmund, Germany
Posts: 750
Wing Commander (1990) also used pre-rendered sprites.
Cherno is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 18:18   #11
Amigajay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: >
Posts: 1,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
This is quite interesting because I always thought Skidmarks was the first game to use pre-rendered sprites. I'm not sure which came first but they are around the same time. Both Skidmarks (Imagine rendered vehicles) and Stardust were reviewed in the same Amiga Format issue. Actually the first issue of any Amiga magazine I ever bought.

http://amr.abime.net/issue_211_pages
After looking earlier, Stardust was down for a July release and the review failed to appear in the next issue of AP nor any other Amiga mag till the Christmas/Dec issues, so more than likely around the same time as Skidmarks (November).
Amigajay is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 20:46   #12
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 46
Posts: 7,309
Just a recap, Psygnosis were earlier than everyone as they bought some Silicon Graphics Indy machines for their foray into CD Rom stuff and lots of the Amiga intros were rendered on the Indy, starting in 1990

Armour-Geddon
Combat Air Patrol
Awesome
Nitro
The Killing Game Show
Microcosm
Walker
Galahad/FLT is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 21:37   #13
Mikerochip
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ireland
Posts: 167
Wikipedia says that Xevious was the first game to use rendered graphics, in 1982.

Citing Next Generation magazine, Issue 21, Page 39.

https://namcompendium.wordpress.com/...um-14-xevious/ says it too, but neither say where they got the info.

That beats everyone else by a huge amount if true!
Mikerochip is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 22:07   #14
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 46
Posts: 7,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikerochip View Post
Wikipedia says that Xevious was the first game to use rendered graphics, in 1982.

Citing Next Generation magazine, Issue 21, Page 39.

https://namcompendium.wordpress.com/...um-14-xevious/ says it too, but neither say where they got the info.

That beats everyone else by a huge amount if true!
Yeah i'm not sure how they can get away with a claim like that.

For one, was there even the technology to render stuff in 1982?

The Last Starfighter movie was in 1984, on a Cray XMP Super computer, and it was all coordinate based software to draw that lot onscreen, inputting numbers from grid paper based references.

I see nothing in Xevious that would justify that level of power, and seemingly only used once for a rather crappy looking game.
Galahad/FLT is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 22:11   #15
Amigajay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: >
Posts: 1,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Just a recap, Psygnosis were earlier than everyone as they bought some Silicon Graphics Indy machines for their foray into CD Rom stuff and lots of the Amiga intros were rendered on the Indy, starting in 1990

Armour-Geddon
Combat Air Patrol
Awesome
Nitro
The Killing Game Show
Microcosm
Walker
Yeah that was the obvious thought at first, but intro’s aside did they use pre-rendered sprites in-game pre 1993? Most looked hand drawn bar the Walker sprite and that came out April 1993, not much earlier than the two games mentioned above.
Amigajay is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 22:15   #16
Steve
Truth seeker...
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Age: 41
Posts: 2,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Yeah i'm not sure how they can get away with a claim like that.

For one, was there even the technology to render stuff in 1982?
Here is a rendered hand animation from (drum roll please).... 1972!!

[ Show youtube player ]
Steve is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 22:46   #17
lilalurl
Global Moderator
lilalurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: France
Age: 40
Posts: 3,049
Send a message via ICQ to lilalurl
Regarding Xevious, I'd think the rotating tiles you can see at 3:50:
[ Show youtube player ]

might be pre-rendered to give that 3D effect (including the lightning aspect).
lilalurl is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 22:59   #18
Shatterhand
Warhasneverbeensomuchfun

Shatterhand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil
Age: 36
Posts: 3,346
I don't think they are. 2 days ago I just draw something like those rotating tiles by hand (Well, mouse), and I am an awful gfx artist They aren't hard to do honestly. I used less frames than Xevious does but, still, not hard.
Shatterhand is offline  
Old 18 August 2019, 23:12   #19
Foebane
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cardiff, UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilalurl View Post
Regarding Xevious, I'd think the rotating tiles you can see at 3:50:
[ Show youtube player ]

might be pre-rendered to give that 3D effect (including the lightning aspect).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatterhand View Post
I don't think they are. 2 days ago I just draw something like those rotating tiles by hand (Well, mouse), and I am an awful gfx artist They aren't hard to do honestly. I used less frames than Xevious does but, still, not hard.
OF COURSE those tiles are NOT pre-rendered! They are so simple to draw and animate that it would be POINTLESS NOT to hand-draw them!
Foebane is offline  
Old 19 August 2019, 00:42   #20
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 46
Posts: 7,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Here is a rendered hand animation from (drum roll please).... 1972!!

[ Show youtube player ]
Pretty impressive for the day, but the clue is in text "University of Utah".

Lots of American Universities had the resources to have very expensive machines on campus, and I guess Utah had the resources for some quite extraordinary computing power (for 1972).

I'm still doubting the veracity of the Xevious claim, because theres nothing remotely about the graphics in Xevious that suggest rendering would be quicker than hand animating.

I mean, they made fuck all effort on the music, but supposedly went all out to render some of the enemies!

Just sounds to me like one of those urban legends that stuck, no-one knows where it came from, but everyone believes it.

I certainly see no evidence of Namco using the techniques in further games, which surely, if it was an advanced technique for the day, it would be used more and more.

I don't know, just i'm not so ready to believe it, theres just nothing in Xevious that screams "look at me, i'm rendered baby, and I look all the better for it!!!"
Galahad/FLT is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How many games were rendered unplayable on the A600? Foebane Nostalgia & memories 33 17 March 2018 14:49
Amiga emulator with a game pre-loaded? Farflame New to Emulation or Amiga scene 24 15 June 2015 00:47
AmigaDOS rendered images copse Nostalgia & memories 10 09 January 2010 11:55
Super Stardust CD32 in-game music oneshotdead support.Games 5 15 May 2008 14:19
What Pre-1985 Video Game Character Am I? Kodoichi Nostalgia & memories 12 03 January 2002 17:46

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.09530 seconds with 13 queries