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Old 14 March 2009, 09:39   #1
sun68
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X-Copy Old Versions

Here is It:

X-Copy v5.0 and Tools
Copytool, German
© 1991 Cachet

Click RMB Here

P.S. THIS is also RARE !

P.S.2 OK, No Questions for X-Copy for me!

@sun68: .: speaking here :.
-> EAST GERMAN <-

Last edited by sun68; 14 March 2009 at 09:57.
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Old 17 March 2009, 00:16   #2
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Bong!!!!
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Old 17 March 2009, 09:45   #3
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Thanks for this version sun68
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Old 17 March 2009, 09:50   #4
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Since when is v5.0 rare?
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Old 17 March 2009, 10:57   #5
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Since when is v5.0 rare?
Have a look on eBay, anything with "Amiga" in the title also comes along with the word "rare" for some reason lol
 
Old 20 March 2009, 23:36   #6
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So has this actually been declared free software? Yay, I did not know that! You'd now say "why do you want to know?". And I'd reply: "We made it..."

I mean, hey, I the good old times people at least tried to hide piracy...
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Old 21 March 2009, 00:05   #7
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I mean, hey, I the good old times people at least tried to hide piracy...
I really hope you are NOT serious here.

You don't really seriously call it piracy when a program (yes I know you were involved, so far you mentioned that in every X-Copy thread here) that is not sold anymore since 1995/1996 (wild guess, you should know that better than me) is made available here, do you.
And you know as good as me that X-Copy was openly pirated back in the day already as well, people didn't hide that at all.

Also, I assume you have (and always had) only 100% original software in your collection?
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Old 21 March 2009, 08:54   #8
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I really hope you are NOT serious here.
*cough* If the owner would be serious about this, there'd be legal action taken. So no, I am just teasing. I also did not want to insult anybody.

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You don't really seriously call it piracy when a program (yes I know you were involved, so far you mentioned that in every X-Copy thread here) that is not sold anymore since 1995/1996 (wild guess, you should know that better than me) is made available here, do you.
And you know as good as me that X-Copy was openly pirated back in the day already as well, people didn't hide that at all.
Yeah right... so any program not being sold anymore is freeware? Can I adopt that model to other things like music and art? To pick up a recent discussion from the other thread: Has someone started to finally crack PowerCopy, or have we decided to pay the guy who wrote it, who seems to be broke and ill and asked for donations, so he'd publish a deprotected version? Has the "scene" *cough, cough* really gotten better?

In regard to X-Copy being copied like hell back then... The company suffered severe losses, and in the end things went sour, like for many other companies, too. I am sorry for mentioning I was involved. But you're also still calling yourself StingRay, do you?

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Also, I assume you have (and always had) only 100% original software in your collection?
I wonder what THIS has to do with the discussion above. But yes and no. I usually tend to pay for software I use. I also would like to have a Corvette Stingray, which is old and not being sold anymore, but I do not steal one. Back then in most cases you did not have the option to try software and buy later, which is different today with all the trials available. So back then you had to get a copy first. But I do not distribute what I do not own...

But hey... you've always been on the other side, right?

EDIT: If you're wondering what my motivation is... I'd like to have the original versions out there, unmodified, so people get the choice. And yes, I have asked the copyright holder to release them all as freeware, including the source.

Last edited by mr.vince; 21 March 2009 at 09:13. Reason: add info
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Old 21 March 2009, 15:01   #9
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Originally Posted by mr.vince View Post
Yeah right... so any program not being sold anymore is freeware?
Where and when did I say that?

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Originally Posted by mr.vince View Post
Can I adopt that model to other things like music and art?
I knew that you would come up with something like that. You could have chosen something less cliché as this one is worn out already.

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Originally Posted by mr.vince View Post
To pick up a recent discussion from the other thread: Has someone started to finally crack PowerCopy
Yes.

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Originally Posted by mr.vince View Post
Has the "scene" *cough, cough* really gotten better?
There is no illegal scene on Amiga anymore, just in case you didn't notice.

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Originally Posted by mr.vince View Post
I wonder what THIS has to do with the discussion above. But yes and no. I usually tend to pay for software I use. I also would like to have a Corvette Stingray, which is old and not being sold anymore, but I do not steal one.
Look above, worn out cliché. Also, you *usually* tend to pay for your software, that implies there are situations were you don't pay for it so you shouldn't complain about any "piracy" at all.

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Back then in most cases you did not have the option to try software and buy later, which is different today with all the trials available. So back then you had to get a copy first. But I do not distribute what I do not own...
And because you didn't distribute your "backup copies" it makes it less piracy?

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But hey... you've always been on the other side, right?
I've always been on both sides!
Anyway, I couldn't care less if someone makes X-Copy available today, I just replied here because I find it pretty damn useless (and somewhat hilarious) to mention the word "piracy" in that case. No hard feelings, opinions beg to differ.
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Old 21 March 2009, 15:10   #10
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Yeah right... so any program not being sold anymore is freeware? Can I adopt that model to other things like music and art?
It's not freeware, but if you happen to find a record that's been out of print since almost 15 years (in this case) I'm very doubtful the record company in question would even think about trying to hunt you down for copying it. And that slides us in to the tedious debate on whether copying software/music/movies/books/whatever copyrighted material is piracy or not. Piracy is selling copyrighted material for profit without authorization. Copying is copying.
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Old 21 March 2009, 15:24   #11
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I see where this goes now...
Maybe some posts should be moved here : http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=38306
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Old 21 March 2009, 15:45   #12
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I mean, hey, I the good old times people at least tried to hide piracy...
What now?
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Old 21 March 2009, 16:37   #13
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And because you didn't distribute your "backup copies" it makes it less piracy?
Sorry, but if I bore you with clichés you refuse to answer to, I think it does not make sense to give you an answer to most of the rest above. It's easy to get around things you do not like by just calling them a cliché...

And yes, I think it's a *big* difference if you just happen to have something or distribute it. From the publisher's point of view I (personally) do not care about someone having something, the thing gets evil when people start spreading. Private copies never were a problem for the industry, but sharing large amount of things, like currently via or similar, is what really makes the situation much worse.

I also wonder why you have chosen to ignore my very last info in regard to motivation. It just hurts seing badly modified versions done by what you'd call script kiddies today. Taking out the publisher's copyright, and inserting your name... I mean, there was nothing that needed to be cracked in X-Copy, still people always had to have their name in it... "Hey, we spread it first". Wow, what an achievement! So to make it clear... yes, I'd be much more pleased by actually seeing the original (read: verified, working) versions spread. That would, again als already explained, require the copyright holder to give me, or someone else, the ok to do so.

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No hard feelings, opinions beg to differ.
As I said... I was just wondering that everyone is careful with links to ROMs (e.g. Kickstarts), but when it comes to other software, that seems to be ok...

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Yes, please? I don't get the point... what does a preservation project have to do with the distribution of software, as pointed out above? Softpres never has, never will, distribute the software archived. We can however not control what contributors do with the images they get, nor do we judge it. I am also very pleased if a company decides to make their oldies public domain, but understand that others take their ip and make a profit - e.g. Giana Sisters being rereleased for mobile phones. That's ok, too. I however doubt that there will be any X-Copy for mobile phones.

The "complaint" (with a smiley!) above was in regard to a software I was personally involved with... with more explanation again above.
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Old 21 March 2009, 16:54   #14
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Sorry, but if I bore you with clichés you refuse to answer to, I think it does not make sense to give you an answer to most of the rest above. It's easy to get around things you do not like by just calling them a cliché...
It is cliché because it implies everyone who copied X-Copy would have also bought it which is definitely not true. Furthermore I never broke into a car yet I copied and even cracked software, what now? You see where this leads to? And as you mentioned music, as I'm into non-mainstream music I often check out certain "not quite legal" copies and BUY the albums later.


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Originally Posted by mr.vince View Post
but sharing large amount of things, like currently via or similar, is what really makes the situation much worse.
I agree! But as said, don't forget that a lot of people would have never bought the software anyway, no matter what.

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I also wonder why you have chosen to ignore my very last info in regard to motivation. It just hurts seing badly modified versions done by what you'd call script kiddies today. Taking out the publisher's copyright, and inserting your name... I mean, there was nothing that needed to be cracked in X-Copy, still people always had to have their name in it... "Hey, we spread it first". Wow, what an achievement! So to make it clear... yes, I'd be much more pleased by actually seeing the original (read: verified, working) versions spread. That would, again als already explained, require the copyright holder to give me, or someone else, the ok to do so.
I see your point and I agree here too. I found the faked 6.xx versions utterly lame back in the day already, yet it seems people where fascinated by them for a reason I still fail to understand.


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Originally Posted by mr.vince View Post
As I said... I was just wondering that everyone is careful with links to ROMs (e.g. Kickstarts), but when it comes to other software, that seems to be ok...
To avoid misunderstandings, I do know that it is of course still illegal to spread copyrighted stuff like X-Copy. However, there is no harm done when things that are not sold anymore are made available, that's my opinion at least. The world is not just black and white, there are shades of grey too you know.
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Old 21 March 2009, 17:13   #15
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Yes, please? I don't get the point... what does a preservation project have to do with the distribution of software, as pointed out above? Softpres never has, never will, distribute the software archived. We can however not control what contributors do with the images they get, nor do we judge it. I am also very pleased if a company decides to make their oldies public domain, but understand that others take their ip and make a profit - e.g. Giana Sisters being rereleased for mobile phones. That's ok, too. I however doubt that there will be any X-Copy for mobile phones.

The "complaint" (with a smiley!) above was in regard to a software I was personally involved with... with more explanation again above.
Ok look, I like SPS very much and I think SPS is doing a huge favour to the retro computer community, however regarding the legality of it;

1) The protection on the software preserved was put there so that making copies should not be possible, and SPS found a way to circumvent that. No matter what SPS intentions it's still illegal copies.

2) SPS recieves these copies from other people who have used SPS software to copy copyprotected and copyrighted material. If we're talking about making a personal backup here, does SPS really own all games as originals that have been sent to them?

3) There is a PayPal button on the SPS site indicating there is some monetary gain from the preservation (copying really) activity.

PLEASE NOTE: I did see your smiley and took your remark as a tounge-in-cheek comment, which is why in my reply there is a smiley as well.
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Old 22 March 2009, 21:45   #16
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Ok look, I like SPS very much and I think SPS is doing a huge favour to the retro computer community, however regarding the legality of it;

1) The protection on the software preserved was put there so that making copies should not be possible, and SPS found a way to circumvent that. No matter what SPS intentions it's still illegal copies.

2) SPS recieves these copies from other people who have used SPS software to copy copyprotected and copyrighted material. If we're talking about making a personal backup here, does SPS really own all games as originals that have been sent to them?

3) There is a PayPal button on the SPS site indicating there is some monetary gain from the preservation (copying really) activity.

PLEASE NOTE: I did see your smiley and took your remark as a tounge-in-cheek comment, which is why in my reply there is a smiley as well.
Well you're obviously not liking the project, otherwise you'd just not try giving anyone a false impression. But your concerns will be adressed anyway.

1. Breaking copy protection in regard to EU law (which has to be adopted by national laws per country) would mean "circumventing a technically effective protection". Floppy disks were introduced in the early 80ies and looking at the price and ease of use of modern equipment (read: Cyclone20), floppy protection simply is no more effective. There's even an exclusion in the DMCA (not that it would directly matter for us, but anyway): http://www.contentagenda.com/blog/15...640034464.html plus http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.html (exemption 2)

2. SPS does archive images only, with the protection fully intact. You can actually read all the data off the floppy with an ordinary Amiga. That's how the makers read the protection when booting the program, right? You can just not write back any such protection on an Amiga. So in technical terms, we're not making a copy. In regard of reading the disk - every gamer does it when playing a game.

3. We actually OWN about 70% to 80% of the materials archived, but we nevertheless need contributions because in some cases the physical media we have is defective or has been altered by the previous owner.

4. SPS does not write back disks, nor are images distributed. Thus, no copies are made. The law does not address the generation of images in regard to breaking copyright.

5. The use of donations is documented on the SPS site. No money is ever spent on making illegal copies (what an absurd idea, and why would we need money for this?).

6. The law does exclude science and study (sorry for / if bad English here) from the law which forbids making copies of protected media (again, there is an EU rule that has to be implemented into national law, so I could give you the correct wording in German, but not in English), the same applies for libraries.

7. The law enforces any company publishing books, movies or magazines to send two copies (German law, might slightly differ for e.g. the UK) to a national library + a foundation of their choice for preservation. The same is currently happening with digital media and websites. Big websites have to deliver their content to national libraries, while dynamic pages, like EAB, are spidered by the libraries, the same way as Google indexes pages. It's only a matter of time until games will be preserved as well and we will happily contribute what would have been lost until then.

8. While SPS is in fact a privately held, we're in constant discussion with national libraries and museums, which also are very happy with what we have done so far. I assume someone would have sued us if they'd have concerns we're doing anything wrong. The opposite is happening: People are glad someone at least does it, while the countries (most of them) have not started doing this. Waiting is not an option for us.

9. Finally: The EU is currently funding a project (called KEEP, http://www.keep-project.eu) with EUR 3.15 million (!) that is aimed at making emulators portable to new platforms. If you look at the work packages, you can clearly see that WP1 incorporates research and development of an imaging solution for legacy disk formats. Do you really think the EU would fund a copyright infringement at this scale with tax Euros?

May I please ask you that before you insult the project next time you formulate your questions as questions? I just do not like others getting the impression that anything might be wrong with SPS. If you have other objections, please deliver proof. Thank you!

PS: I don't feel that this topic needs further explanation, so unless you can deliver any hard facts, I'll refrain from this (useless) discussion for the time being.

Last edited by mr.vince; 23 March 2009 at 09:11. Reason: another link added
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Old 23 March 2009, 00:18   #17
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Think this thread should be moved somewhere more suitable. It has morphed into a copyright monstrosity.

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May I please ask you that before you insult the project next time you formulate your questions as questions?
Wow, I did not set out to insult SPS. I'm surprised you even took it that way, especially since I at the very beginning stated that I like SPS very much and that I think SPS is doing a huge favor to the retro computing community. Like I said I was talking about the legality of it. And the only question I made was formulated as a question, the rest was statements.

First off:

Quote:
1. Breaking copy protection in regard to EU law (which has to be adopted by national laws per country) would mean "circumventing a technically effective protection". Floppy disks were introduced in the early 80ies and looking at the price and ease of use of modern equipment (read: Cyclone20), floppy protection simply is no more effective. There's even an exclusion in the DMCA (not that it would directly matter for us, but anyway): http://www.contentagenda.com/blog/15...640034464.html
The use of modern equipment to bypass a copy protection is still circumventing the copy protection and thus illegal. I did not know about the DMCA excemption and I stand corrected. However abandonware (which this really is about) are no less protected by copyright laws just because they're obsolete and out of market, but since the DMCA exemption makes it possible to do what SPS does there's not much point in me arguing this one, and trust me, I am glad!

Quote:
2. SPS does archive images only, with the protection fully intact. You can actually read all the data off the floppy with an ordinary Amiga. That's how the makers read the protection when booting the program, right? You can just not write back any such protection on an Amiga. So in technical terms, we're not making a copy. In regard of reading the disk - every gamer does it when playing a game.
I'm gonna let Wikipedia answer that one:

In information technology, backup refers to making copies of data so that these additional copies may be used to restore the original after a data loss event. These additional copies are typically called "backups." Backups are useful primarily for two purposes. The first is to restore a state following a disaster (called disaster recovery). The second is to restore small numbers of files after they have been accidentally deleted or corrupted.

Making an image that is byte for byte exactly the same of the data on the floppy disk in this case, is to make a perfect copy of the data. It doesn't matter if it's written back to another floppy disk, it is still a copy of the disk even if it's stored as an image file on a harddrive. No use arguing the legality of this either thought due to the DMCA excemption, but they ARE copies.

Quote:
3. We actually OWN about 70% to 80% of the materials archived, but we nevertheless need contributions because in some cases the physical media we have is defective or has been altered by the previous owner.
I'm pretty sure you mean you have 70% to 80% of the games as originals, and not actually owning them. The copyright holders owns them. Knitpicking.

Quote:
4. ... The law does not address the generation of images in regard to breaking copyright.
I'm sorry but that is complete ass-talk right there. Creating a perfect copy of any medium and storing it as an image file is to create a copy. If I were to create an image file of a copyrighted audio cd and store it as an image file, you better believe that this is indeed copyright infringement!

My intentions with writing my first post was not a shot at insulting either you as a person or the SPS project at all, but merely to adress the legality of storing copies of copy protected and copyrighted material. Like I said earlier I was not aware of the DMCA excemption and from that standpoint was referring to actual copyright law.

Maybe I should add that the "What now? " was a joke reply (like I said earlier, referring to my smiley) to your obviously not very serious "Atleast back in the day we used to hide piracy" remark. Then you wondered what I meant by that and I explained myself using facts from copyright laws. This has gone too far already...

Last edited by Skope; 23 March 2009 at 00:56.
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Old 23 March 2009, 08:25   #18
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I see where this goes now...
Maybe some posts should be moved here : http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=38306
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Think this thread should be moved somewhere more suitable. It has morphed into a copyright monstrosity.
Really? What a surprise
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Old 23 March 2009, 13:39   #19
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me sits back and waits a few months for the next rant on copyright law

I`m sure there be 1 again in a few weeks, there usualy is

anyhow back on topic what was the last official xcopy released ??
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Old 23 March 2009, 16:22   #20
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anyhow back on topic what was the last official xcopy released ??
Thanks, yeah.

I (currently) have to pass on this. I hope that I can answer this should I ever get the disk box labelled "masters" from my former boss.

I have quite a collection of disks that can be considered genuine, but I am not sure if there ever was an unreleased candidate that did not make it to the public anymore.

The last version I know has the new design (purple '95 design, but not the one from 1993) which a much higher resolution (some kind of hires screen). It's a complete rewrite, so lacks most of the advanced nibbling routines the older versions had. Things had changed in late 1995 and most games came without copy protection, so X-Copy was losing it's purpose. It think Cachet did try to compensate for this by including a stronger set of tools. I am again not very sure about this as I had left the company in early '95.

Again, I'll give it a shot, but if you're out for the "real" thing, you have to get the last version before the rewrite. This ought to be as system friendly as possible, while maintaining all the good features of the early versions.
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