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Old 02 May 2019, 13:31   #1
hexaae
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SCSI access: SPTI = freeze with some CD/DVD/BDs

Hi Toni,
to make MakeCD read/write CDs with WinUAE I've set WinUAE > Miscellaneous > SCSI and CD/DVD access: SPTI+SCSI SCAN.

The problem is that the whole emulator and Windows 10 CD-ROM access freeze when I try to boot with T0's physical CD (the shoot'em'up game) inside (mixed mode data track 1 + audio tracks later), until I physically remove the external BDRW. No problem inserting a data CD. Just with mixed mode CDs at boot.

Tried the same on old WinUAE 2.5.1 and was able to boot with the same config and WinUAE > Miscellaneous > SCSI and CD/DVD access: SPTI+SCSI SCAN without problems.
Also WinUAE 2.5.1 freezes though when I try to accede the audio tracks on T0's CD, or when I start the game and it checks for audio tracks... but at least I can boot.

Attached full logs when 4.2.1beta2 freezes on boot: https://gofile.io/?c=nkhJrL

My cfg: https://gofile.io/?c=m0aPko

I put a ECHO ON* in front of my SSeq but the screen still stays black and freezed on cold boot (WinUAE 4.2.1beta2) before it can read SSeq, so it's not a software problem on my Workbench side related to CacheCDFS or so…

Let me know all logs and infos you need in case.

*Set ECHO ON

Last edited by hexaae; 07 May 2019 at 14:07.
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Old 02 May 2019, 14:23   #2
Toni Wilen
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I probably say it is unsupported situation if program attempts to play audio tracks with physical drive that does not support audio play commands. (They have been obsoleted ages ago)

If you can't kill winuae with task manager when it hangs, it means something is hung in kernel side (usual cause is driver waiting for something from the device) and there is nothing that winuae can do.

1. Use latest version with -log -scsilog, run in windowed mode, copy log window and attach it. (Do not copy the log file, last line(s) may not be written to disk)

2. Old version probably executed less query commands (or something). You need to find out which version is last "working" one. Finding some random ancient one that (accidentally) works is mostly useless information.
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Old 02 May 2019, 14:46   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
I probably say it is unsupported situation if program attempts to play audio tracks with physical drive that does not support audio play commands. (They have been obsoleted ages ago)
Using SCSI and CD/DVD access: SCSI Emulation I can hear audio tracks and play games like T0 with background audio (physical) cd without issues…
The freeze with audio tracks seems to happen only when in SPTI or SPTI+SCSI SCAN mode, not only with MakeCD but even with OS3.9's PlayCD utility to play music tracks only. PlayCD works fine in SCSI Emulation mode.

I'm not sure a previous WinUAE version ever worked perfectly fine… I had a different HW, different DVD writer…

Yes, WinUAE freezes, and so Windows 10 access to the device, until I physically disconnect the drive from USB port and everything continues from where it freezed.

Requested logs with -log -scsilog -scsiemulog from window output when it freezes at boot with black screen: https://gofile.io/?c=KkkSvc

Last edited by hexaae; 02 May 2019 at 15:22.
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Old 02 May 2019, 15:22   #4
Toni Wilen
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I meant SPTI mode which just forwards SCSI commands to the drive. Drive then decides what to do.

SCSI emulation = WinUAE emulates all the commands, drive only sees normal read commands, even when playing audio tracks.

Quote:
28.00.00.00.00.10.00.00.01.00
This is plain read command, for some reason drive refuses to respond, not even with error status. Perhaps it is related to CD type. All the other commands work as expected.
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Old 02 May 2019, 15:46   #5
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SPTI + SCSI SCAN mode, booting with an original music CD inside everything works and can boot, except that when I open PlayCD it detects tracks/album name/titles etc. but can't play tracks: when I press Play nothing happens and also the track timer won't start.
Here is the -log -scsilog -scsiemulog when this happens: https://justpaste.it/4qd6p

(DiscSoftVirtual is the virtual drive because I have installed Daemon Tools Lite 10, but nothing is mounted)
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Old 02 May 2019, 19:35   #6
Toni Wilen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexaae View Post
SPTI + SCSI SCAN mode, booting with an original music CD inside everything works and can boot, except that when I open PlayCD it detects tracks/album name/titles etc. but can't play tracks: when I press Play nothing happens and also the track timer won't start.
Here is the -log -scsilog -scsiemulog when this happens: https://justpaste.it/4qd6p

(DiscSoftVirtual is the virtual drive because I have installed Daemon Tools Lite 10, but nothing is mounted)
It is normal. As I said, no modern DVD (or BD) drive support CD audio track play commands. CD audio can only work in SCSI emulation mode.

EDIT: I'll test t-zero later this week but I expect it to be some weird hardware incompatibility. Does your drive have any firmware updates?

Last edited by Toni Wilen; 02 May 2019 at 19:40.
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Old 02 May 2019, 20:12   #7
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Mmmh, so it is a HW limit in the BD that is missing these old SCSI commands? Ok…
Correct me if I'm wrong: theoretically only an improved SCSI emulation in WinUAE could make these new optical drive to work at this point, right? But of course this would require a lot of work emulating many old SCSI commands -> new commands understood by modern optical drives…
Updated scsi.device from 3.1.4 can't help?

Firmware is up-to-date: 1.10 which is the last one I know of for the Pioneer BD-RW BDR-UD03

Last edited by hexaae; 02 May 2019 at 20:18.
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Old 02 May 2019, 20:21   #8
Toni Wilen
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SCSI emulation mode already emulates all common SCSI CD commands used back in the day, including commands that are obsolete today.

CD burning or DVD etc is not and won't be emulated.
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Old 02 May 2019, 20:33   #9
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Is there some other workaround?
For example setting WinUAE Expansion to some SCSI controller device emu and then using OS3.1.4 scsi.device?
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Old 02 May 2019, 21:01   #10
Toni Wilen
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No because there is no way to work around hang that happens when attempting to simply read the CD.

Easiest (and recommended) solution is to make image file and keep the CD in safe place.
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Old 02 May 2019, 22:20   #11
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Understood
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Old 03 May 2019, 16:31   #12
Toni Wilen
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Do you have any other CD/DVD/BD drives? Do they behave identically?
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Old 03 May 2019, 17:43   #13
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No… unfortunately I have no other USB external optical drive to test and see how it behaves when WinUAE emulation sends those SCSI commands
I can test on another old laptop with DVD though… will keep you informed.
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Old 03 May 2019, 19:08   #14
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Just tested on the old laptop with internal DVD writer Slimtype DVD A DU8A5SH NS21, where I migrated my whole WinUAE installation (so the system was exactly the same)… and was able to boot with T0 CD inside without hanging at black screen. I was also able to use MakeCD and erase a CDRW and I've written a mixed mode CD (!!) 1 session: 1st track Data, 2nd Audio track without issues in SPTI+SCSI SCAN mode (something hard to do even with ImgBurn, CDBurnerXP etc. and was really faaast)!
The problem on this laptop is that with SPTI+SCSI SCAN Play SCSI command seems not to work: audio tracks didn't start from PlayCD and also the game T0 didn't play bg music...
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Old 04 May 2019, 11:15   #15
Toni Wilen
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Ok, so it is drive issue. Perhaps it is USB drive specific. I'll test it soon..

CD audio: same problem, CD audio playback done by the drive is unsupported, it was obsoleted ages ago (at least 10 years, probably much more).

This is the exact reason why SCSI emulation mode was added.

(No, combined SPTI + SCSI emulation for unsupported commands would be too complex and too pointless. Supporting CD burning makes no sense. If you need to use Amiga burning software, use it to create standard image file and then burn it using host burning software)
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Old 05 May 2019, 18:28   #16
Toni Wilen
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I think I know whats going on. (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=97272 was big hint, seems to have exact same reason for the hang)

Normal read (which reads 2048 bytes) won't work with Mode 2 Form 2 tracks but for some reason it does not (anymore) return error but read simply hangs. Perhaps something was obsoleted or something in some spec...

I guess I need to check the track type and if it is not normal 2048 byte data track, return error (if normal non-raw read command) before sending the command to the drive.

EDIT: Or perhaps it is something else after all (but probably still related) because there does not appear to be any Mode 2 Form 2 tracks.

Could you run imgburn and copy and paste the track list when your T-Zero CD is inserted?

Last edited by Toni Wilen; 05 May 2019 at 18:40.
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Old 05 May 2019, 19:36   #17
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Sure, here is the CD structure:



a typical mixed mode CD.
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Old 06 May 2019, 18:09   #18
Toni Wilen
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Ok, so no "special" tracks.. I burned T0 and tested it with USB drive (LG BP50NB40) and it worked fine.

Have you tried imaging it and burning it and testing new burned CD-R/CD-RW? If your new drive thinks there is some kind of error or something..
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Old 06 May 2019, 18:39   #19
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Will try… but generating bin+cue from disc didn't find errors so the source physical disc seems ok.
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Old 06 May 2019, 22:06   #20
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In the meanwhile tried another thing: since it's a USB external BD drive I've connected it to the above mentioned old PC and… same Win 10 version, same identical migrated WinUAE env… didn't freeze at boot with T0 disc inside!
As always couldn't play CD Audio tracks from PlayCD or in T0 game, but didn't freeze at all on boot with the same drive, same WinUAE etc.

Maybe also BIOS/HW is involved in this HW incompatibility at this point…
However not being able to play audio tracks in SPTI+SCSI SCAN mode makes this mode still undesirable also on the old more compatible PC, so I'm afraid there is no perfect solution and have to give up this dream of using good old MakeCD on (some) modern HW + full audio tracks playback. You can't always get what you want someone sang...

Last edited by hexaae; 06 May 2019 at 22:12.
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