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Old 22 September 2019, 02:49   #61
Shatterhand
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I've seen Richard Aplin saying more than once he never liked Final Fight or the Double Dragons game, that he finds them "boring" or something to that effect.

This makes me believe he didn't get what made those games good. Amiga Double Dragon 2 is a much better effort but STILL has serious issues on the gameplay department.

The work he did on Final Fight is amazing, fitting that on 512kb is a friggin miracle and the game moves a fair amount of big stuff very smoothly on screen.

The thing is not getting the gameplay right. And this has nothing to do with "Lazyness" or not being an acomplished programmer. I really feel that what got cut wasn't a case of "This isn't possible to do", but more "I'll cut this because its not important for the game to work so I can focus on another stuff"... while it was.


Smaller graphics with the whole moveset and combos would be a lot better. But then of course he would need someone to port the graphics (instead of ripping them off the arcade board - another technically amazing job he did) and so proper support from US Gold which would never happen (They didn't even give him music to play ingame as he asked).

In a side note, he said he really loved arcade Shinobi and he would get back to play it even after he had finished work on its ports. This really shows in his CPC Port which is a great game for the system.
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Old 22 September 2019, 12:22   #62
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Yeah.
That's the impression I also have.
He just don't like these games, and didn't understood the mechanics.
Too bad, because with a few gameplay tweaks, FF on Amiga could have been much better.
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Old 23 September 2019, 19:50   #63
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We could compromise and do a better port - or refactor the original one - in one megabyte amiga ECS, should be able to handle almost everything (btw i thought final fight was for one megabyte Amiga, not for the 512k, THAT is impressive!)
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Old 23 September 2019, 21:05   #64
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Yeah.
That's the impression I also have.
He just don't like these games, and didn't understood the mechanics.
Too bad, because with a few gameplay tweaks, FF on Amiga could have been much better.
I think it's much more than that. I mean the port does have serious game design issues that could have been fixed (f.e. how the AI works and how responsive player attacks are). However the majority of gameplay was not possible simply because it misses the frames needed (which couldn't have been included given the ram restrictions, sprite sizes and the method chosen).

There's absolutely no doubt that if he had full support from the publisher and Capcom, more time and a dedicated art team he could have ended up with a far superior result. Most people might not realise this but doing a brawler as complex as FF is a massive, crazy difficult task.
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Old 23 September 2019, 21:37   #65
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Most people might not realise this but doing a brawler as complex as FF is a massive, crazy difficult task.
Actually doing a Brawler IS a complex task "per se":
with a shooter you just make a bullet go and check collision, how the hell is a brawler made? I would think is going by proximity and areas in the sprite plus what move you do, which is not exactly easy to program if you are a n00b like me - actually not even if you are more expert, is a completely different set of problems from a shooter!

Last edited by saimon69; 24 September 2019 at 00:13.
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Old 23 September 2019, 23:35   #66
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I thought the Amiga version was pretty good considering the hardware and time limitations. I even say so in my history of final fight video

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 24 September 2019, 11:50   #67
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I think it's much more than that. I mean the port does have serious game design issues that could have been fixed (f.e. how the AI works and how responsive player attacks are). However the majority of gameplay was not possible simply because it misses the frames needed (which couldn't have been included given the ram restrictions, sprite sizes and the method chosen). .
What about:
1) 'just' adding a grab move (it's two frames (grab and throw) per character, + kick frame, so 3 frames total) + one frame per enemy character (flying from the throw).
Now that I write this, I realize, that's a lot of frames.

2) Making player character faster, or enemy slower (just tweaking the speed parameters in the code).

These 2 alone, imho, would drastically improve gameplay.

Yeah, probably not doable, as you said, at least, not doable for the 512kb, but what about 1MB?
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Old 24 September 2019, 13:15   #68
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and how were you going to fit these extra moves on one button joystick, Who was going to make this Arcade perfect port? What makes you think Amiga had the power to do better, where is there a game that proves it can?
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Old 24 September 2019, 14:06   #69
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and how were you going to fit these extra moves on one button joystick, Who was going to make this Arcade perfect port? What makes you think Amiga had the power to do better, where is there a game that proves it can?
There is no button for a grab move.
You just come close to enemy (ideally, from vertical side), and it grabs it automatically. Then, fire is kick with the knee (you can do it 3 times), or down+fire, you throw opponent behind.

I wasn't talking about arcade perfect port, but what changes could possibly be done, to make this port much better.

As for the "what game proves that it can".... we all hope that announced brawler Metro Siege, will prove that many things are possible on 1MB OCS.
Golden Axe is another example of a much better port.
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Old 24 September 2019, 14:09   #70
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Originally Posted by saimon69 View Post
We could compromise and do a better port - or refactor the original one - in one megabyte amiga ECS, should be able to handle almost everything (btw i thought final fight was for one megabyte Amiga, not for the 512k, THAT is impressive!)
The fact that you write this makes me think you missed this existing thread on the subject

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=92851
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Old 24 September 2019, 17:00   #71
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and how were you going to fit these extra moves on one button joystick?

Well Renegade on the arcade had 3 buttons and yet was wonderfully ported to the ZX Spectrum using just 1 one button for not only all the arcade moves but even the extra grab move which was only on the ZX Spectrum version
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Old 24 September 2019, 18:10   #72
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The fact that you write this makes me think you missed this existing thread on the subject

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=92851
I DID write on that thread if you remember, but was always convinced that Final Fight was made for one megabyte machines - btw using a similar engne to Metro City Rampage (16 colors, maybe subpalettes to increase stuff) and lower framerate to 25 FPS we can move a lot of stuff around
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Old 24 September 2019, 19:15   #73
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Final Fight was made for one megabyte machines
This is true. Trying to fit the arcade version of Final Fight into a 512K Amiga was a doomed idea from the start. The idea is as crazy as doing Metal Slug on a A500, if not even crazier.

And add to that a tight deadline, no support, and a publisher that doesn't even care if the game has music or not, and you got a recipe for another "Arcade to Amiga" conversion disaster. But somehow Richard Aplin managed to do an okay conversion anyway, which is very impressive.

In all likelyhood the 512K version of Final Fight is about as good as it gets, and can't be improved much from what it is now. More moves or in-game music simply can't be added because I'm pretty sure that there is no Chip RAM left.

But a one meg 512K + 512K system could probably have music and maybe a few more frames too. To give an idea of what difference 1 MB could make, it's interesting to compare Final Fight to the Us Gold Street Fighter 2, which was released around the same time. Street Fighter 2 actually required a 1 MB machine, and you can see the difference in the end result: lots of moves, 32 color graphics and in-game music.
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Old 24 September 2019, 19:23   #74
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But a one meg 512K + 512K system could probably have music and maybe a few more frames too. To give an idea of what difference 1 MB could make, it's interesting to compare Final Fight to the Us Gold Street Fighter 2, which was released around the same time. Street Fighter 2 actually required a 1 MB machine, and you can see the difference in the end result: lots of moves, 32 color graphics and in-game music.
But then they screwed it up anyway, however that is another story :P
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Old 24 September 2019, 19:56   #75
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About Metal Slug, we know a port 1:1 is not feasible, however if is the animation and the playability you want we could have all sprites lemming-sized and excellent animation a la cannon fodder - and call it something else than Metal Slug of course, that does not sound too bad
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Old 24 September 2019, 21:12   #76
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Originally Posted by Master484 View Post

But a one meg 512K + 512K system could probably have music and maybe a few more frames too. To give an idea of what difference 1 MB could make, it's interesting to compare Final Fight to the Us Gold Street Fighter 2, which was released around the same time. Street Fighter 2 actually required a 1 MB machine, and you can see the difference in the end result: lots of moves, 32 color graphics and in-game music.
I remember Richard Aplin saying he left some space to add ingame music and asked US Gold to hire a musician to give him some music. They said they would do it but never did. And to me this explained why the game has only 3 sound effects.
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Old 25 September 2019, 08:50   #77
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A bit OT but i realized that i did found some time ago this article and did not put it up:
Fixing Amiga Final Fight
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Old 25 September 2019, 10:38   #78
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My friend (that had A500), told me once that Mortal Kombat 1 required 1.5 MB Ram.
Is that true? I was always... wtf.. MK2 (larger game), required only 1MB.
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Old 25 September 2019, 12:52   #79
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Maybe some version did? I played MK1 on my Amiga 500 with 1mb of ram in any case.
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Old 25 September 2019, 13:44   #80
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I think MK2 detected the extra RAM as well to reduce loading times.
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