Final Fight Speculation

sandruzzo · 29 May 2018, 20:20

Was Final Fight on Amiga the best that our machine could do?

tolkien · 29 May 2018, 20:35

Is the best we have till someone do it better.

Retro1234 · 29 May 2018, 20:56

Final Fight runs on 512kb I doubt annyone could beat that.

Theres also Final Fight AGA

and on YouTube Final Fight supposedly made in Amos but he lost the code might be fake because theres no details.

dlfrsilver · 29 May 2018, 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro1234

Final Fight runs on 512kb I doubt annyone could beat that.

Theres also Final Fight AGA

and on YouTube Final Fight supposedly made in Amos but he lost the code might be fake because theres no details.

he got a hard drive crash.

Retro1234 · 29 May 2018, 21:55

Yes it might be fake he doesn't say how he got around the Amos Bob clipping also as far as I know you can't display graphics behind tiles in Amos like on the train level a few things unless he explains I think it might be fake.

Why anyone would go through all the effort to make a fake video ?!?

Shatterhand · 30 May 2018, 05:21

I guess it really depends on how you take the game.

First, the game plays like shit. Without using more memory, not messing with GFX or anything, you could have the special move working like in the arcade, combos working like in the arcade and the enemies not ganging you up in a corner until all your energy goes away. Those 3 fixes would already make the game a shitload better and it would still run on 512 kb.

But I personally would prefer smaller sprites (BOBs whatever) with better speed/gameplay. Give me smaller sprites but all moves and all enemies. The way the game streams from the disk mid-gameplay, I believe it could fit on 512 kb. (Golden Axe and Shadow Warriors do, don't they?).

Of course, you would need someone to rework graphics, and AFAIK Mr. Applin was doing the whole job alone (for both Amiga and ST in just 6 months which, we have to admit it was an impossible job).

Now if you are talking just about the genre... I really think a scrolling figthing game designed properly for our machine could be very good. Unfortunately no one ever made one that was good. Last Action Hero could had been good with a few (a lot?) of tweaks. Golden Axe is the best game on the genre for the system IMO, and I don't think even as an arcade game it was all that great.

Someday I'll try to code one myself. I really have many ideas of how to do it, I just need the time to sit down and write the code for it

sandruzzo · 30 May 2018, 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shatterhand

I guess it really depends on how you take the game.

First, the game plays like shit. Without using more memory, not messing with GFX or anything, you could have the special move working like in the arcade, combos working like in the arcade and the enemies not ganging you up in a corner until all your energy goes away. Those 3 fixes would already make the game a shitload better and it would still run on 512 kb.

But I personally would prefer smaller sprites (BOBs whatever) with better speed/gameplay. Give me smaller sprites but all moves and all enemies. The way the game streams from the disk mid-gameplay, I believe it could fit on 512 kb. (Golden Axe and Shadow Warriors do, don't they?).

Of course, you would need someone to rework graphics, and AFAIK Mr. Applin was doing the whole job alone (for both Amiga and ST in just 6 months which, we have to admit it was an impossible job).

Now if you are talking just about the genre... I really think a scrolling figthing game designed properly for our machine could be very good. Unfortunately no one ever made one that was good. Last Action Hero could had been good with a few (a lot?) of tweaks. Golden Axe is the best game on the genre for the system IMO, and I don't think even as an arcade game it was all that great.

Someday I'll try to code one myself. I really have many ideas of how to do it, I just need the time to sit down and write the code for it

I agree! 30% less big bobs' would have been great. Maybe it could stand with 32 colors! Double dragon 2-3 weren't so bad!

Retro1234 · 30 May 2018, 09:19

Yes maybe like this
https://doubledragon.kontek.net/games/dd/rdd2600.html

Seiya · 30 May 2018, 12:07

i see yesterday again Shadow Dancer that run with 512k, has good size movement sprites, fluid a 50 fps in every situations and great care of graphics.
Final Fight is little different in gameplay (anyway, both are progressive beat'em up), but with more 2 characters on screen it slowdown very much.

Muzkat · 30 May 2018, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shatterhand

First, the game plays like shit. Without using more memory, not messing with GFX or anything, you could have the special move working like in the arcade, combos working like in the arcade and the enemies not ganging you up in a corner until all your energy goes away. Those 3 fixes would already make the game a shitload better and it would still run on 512 kb.

This is my main grievance with the Amiga version of Final Fight. The gameplay and controls are atrocious.

Shatterhand · 30 May 2018, 17:01

This is a game running on a 8 bits system with half the CPU speed of an A500, and the whole game is just 256 kbytes:

[ Show youtube player ]

This beats the hell out of *any* beat'em up on amiga.

While I understand that having a decent sprite hardware and tiles for background would make a lot easier to develop a game like this (And sprites on Master System are more powerful than on Amiga), I really think something like this could be handled by the hardware without much trouble (Honestly, with that framerate, I still think Amiga could handle a 2nd player and more than 2 foes on screen... and maybe still fit everything under 512 kb)

Shit, this is a NES game, supports 2 simultaneous player and it's also better than everything on the genre for Amiga:

[ Show youtube player ].

Like I said, I'd rather have smaller BOBs than shitty gameplay.

Quote:

i see yesterday again Shadow Dancer that run with 512k, has good size movement sprites, fluid a 50 fps in every situations and great care of graphics.

Man, I Love Shadow Dancer on Amiga, but no way that game is running at 50 fps. Play the arcade version then go to the Amiga version and you'll se a lot of things moving not so smoothly. I believe scroll may be at 50 fps, but the enemies move at 25 fps or maybe even less. Still it's a great conversion, great game on Amiga

mcgeezer · 30 May 2018, 18:15

These games could easily be ported to the a500. 50fps and probably more sprites too.

TurboCrash · 30 May 2018, 18:19

It's the best the amiga could do. You need a really monstrous machine like a z80 with 48k of ram to make a proper mighty final fight /s

http://www.indieretronews.com/2018/0...nal-fight.html

Shatterhand · 30 May 2018, 18:35

I didn't mention Might Final Fight because while the NES original game is a brilliant game, it has lots of limitations when compared to other games of the genre, and also play a lot different. The TMNT game and Streets of Rage I mentioned above are more "traditional" games on the genre. But yeah, it's a great example too.

Like McGeezer said, I am pretty sure that TMNT 3 game could be made on Amiga with more bobs and no flicker like the NES one has

But we didn't have Konami or Sega making games on Amiga.

The major problem wasn't competent coders, but people who actually could design good games around the hardware. Well, good beat'em ups at least.

I'll never forget Richard Applin saying he didn't understand the appeal of games like Double Dragon 2 and Final Fight, and that he preferred playing Shinobi. No wonder his Shinobi port for the Amstrad was great, while Final Fight on Amiga was.. erm... and Double Dragon 2 has lots of gameplay issues (even though technically its great - also running on 512 kb afaik). He didn't understand those games and couldn't transfer the gameplay aspects of them that made them good games on the arcades. (And probably why he thought mantaining the big sprites of Final Fight was more important than, say, keeping all player moves intact)

That's the main point I think. People trying to do beat'em ups without understanding what makes them good on the first place. Last Action Hero is technically very good, but the gameplay stinks. From that engine someone could tweak it and make a very solid beat'em up.

Konami or Capcom could make a great beat'em up running on an OCS 512 kb machine, I am pretty sure

LeCaravage · 30 May 2018, 18:54

AFAIK Richard Aplin alone did the Atari St, Amiga and Amstrad CPC + deadline pressure. The only one to blame is his boss for not giving him more significant resources.

Retro1234 · 30 May 2018, 19:56

Final Fight with sprites the size of Shadow Dancer no thanks

I'd like a SE version of Final Fight redone Palette and second button support etc.

Shatterhand · 30 May 2018, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeCaravage

AFAIK Richard Aplin alone did the Atari St, Amiga and Amstrad CPC + deadline pressure. The only one to blame is his boss for not giving him more significant resources.

No doubt this was the biggest problem. One guy doing 3 versions of the same game such a tight deadline.

spiff · 30 May 2018, 21:59

Mega CD version for reference.

An amiga should be able to do that at half the frame rate and on screen colours, but using a better palette.
And that pretty close to what Richard did.

Minus all the extra CD intro stuff etc

[ Show youtube player ]

dlfrsilver · 31 May 2018, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro1234

Final Fight with sprites the size of Shadow Dancer no thanks

I'd like a SE version of Final Fight redone Palette and second button support etc.

FF on CPC was nick Vincent. Richard said it

mcgeezer · 31 May 2018, 10:43

I've never really been a fan of the beat 'em up genre so when Double Dragon and pretty much everything after it came out I was never inspired that much to play them.

However there are some notable exceptions such as Mortal Kombat which I loved and played a lot on my SNES, but my all time favourite is Kung Fu Master in the arcades which when I've looked never received an Amiga port!

I think I could be inspired enough to code a game based on my love for martial arts movies such as Enter the Dragon, The Raid 1 or 2, Old Boy.

I can't think of any decent Kung Fu games on the Amiga that beats Kung Fu master so I might have a pop at that for a short 3 month project... something like "Kung Fu Master - The Upper Floors" could be good.

Up for debate, are there any better arcade style games on Amiga that beats Kung Fu master?

29 May 2018, 20:20	#1
sandruzzo Registered User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Italy/Rome Posts: 2,291	Final Fight Speculation Was Final Fight on Amiga the best that our machine could do?

30 May 2018, 21:59	#18
spiff Oh noes! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Neverland Posts: 766	Mega CD version for reference. An amiga should be able to do that at half the frame rate and on screen colours, but using a better palette. And that pretty close to what Richard did. Minus all the extra CD intro stuff etc [ Show youtube player ] Last edited by spiff; 30 May 2018 at 22:08.

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29 May 2018, 20:35	#2
tolkien AmigaMan Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Castro Urdiales/Spain Posts: 761	Is the best we have till someone do it better.

29 May 2018, 20:56	#3
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,775	Final Fight runs on 512kb I doubt annyone could beat that. Theres also Final Fight AGA and on YouTube Final Fight supposedly made in Amos but he lost the code might be fake because theres no details.

29 May 2018, 21:55	#5
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,775	Yes it might be fake he doesn't say how he got around the Amos Bob clipping also as far as I know you can't display graphics behind tiles in Amos like on the train level a few things unless he explains I think it might be fake. Why anyone would go through all the effort to make a fake video ?!?

30 May 2018, 05:21	#6
Shatterhand Warhasneverbeensomuchfun Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil Age: 41 Posts: 3,450	I guess it really depends on how you take the game. First, the game plays like shit. Without using more memory, not messing with GFX or anything, you could have the special move working like in the arcade, combos working like in the arcade and the enemies not ganging you up in a corner until all your energy goes away. Those 3 fixes would already make the game a shitload better and it would still run on 512 kb. But I personally would prefer smaller sprites (BOBs whatever) with better speed/gameplay. Give me smaller sprites but all moves and all enemies. The way the game streams from the disk mid-gameplay, I believe it could fit on 512 kb. (Golden Axe and Shadow Warriors do, don't they?). Of course, you would need someone to rework graphics, and AFAIK Mr. Applin was doing the whole job alone (for both Amiga and ST in just 6 months which, we have to admit it was an impossible job). Now if you are talking just about the genre... I really think a scrolling figthing game designed properly for our machine could be very good. Unfortunately no one ever made one that was good. Last Action Hero could had been good with a few (a lot?) of tweaks. Golden Axe is the best game on the genre for the system IMO, and I don't think even as an arcade game it was all that great. Someday I'll try to code one myself. I really have many ideas of how to do it, I just need the time to sit down and write the code for it

30 May 2018, 09:19	#8
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,775	Yes maybe like this https://doubledragon.kontek.net/games/dd/rdd2600.html

30 May 2018, 12:07	#9
Seiya Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Italy Posts: 2,365	i see yesterday again Shadow Dancer that run with 512k, has good size movement sprites, fluid a 50 fps in every situations and great care of graphics. Final Fight is little different in gameplay (anyway, both are progressive beat'em up), but with more 2 characters on screen it slowdown very much.

30 May 2018, 18:15	#12
mcgeezer Registered User Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Sunderland, England Posts: 2,702	These games could easily be ported to the a500. 50fps and probably more sprites too.

30 May 2018, 18:19	#13
TurboCrash Registered User Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Lisbon/Portugal Posts: 51	It's the best the amiga could do. You need a really monstrous machine like a z80 with 48k of ram to make a proper mighty final fight /s http://www.indieretronews.com/2018/0...nal-fight.html

30 May 2018, 18:35	#14
Shatterhand Warhasneverbeensomuchfun Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil Age: 41 Posts: 3,450	I didn't mention Might Final Fight because while the NES original game is a brilliant game, it has lots of limitations when compared to other games of the genre, and also play a lot different. The TMNT game and Streets of Rage I mentioned above are more "traditional" games on the genre. But yeah, it's a great example too. Like McGeezer said, I am pretty sure that TMNT 3 game could be made on Amiga with more bobs and no flicker like the NES one has But we didn't have Konami or Sega making games on Amiga. The major problem wasn't competent coders, but people who actually could design good games around the hardware. Well, good beat'em ups at least. I'll never forget Richard Applin saying he didn't understand the appeal of games like Double Dragon 2 and Final Fight, and that he preferred playing Shinobi. No wonder his Shinobi port for the Amstrad was great, while Final Fight on Amiga was.. erm... and Double Dragon 2 has lots of gameplay issues (even though technically its great - also running on 512 kb afaik). He didn't understand those games and couldn't transfer the gameplay aspects of them that made them good games on the arcades. (And probably why he thought mantaining the big sprites of Final Fight was more important than, say, keeping all player moves intact) That's the main point I think. People trying to do beat'em ups without understanding what makes them good on the first place. Last Action Hero is technically very good, but the gameplay stinks. From that engine someone could tweak it and make a very solid beat'em up. Konami or Capcom could make a great beat'em up running on an OCS 512 kb machine, I am pretty sure

30 May 2018, 18:54	#15
LeCaravage Registered User Join Date: May 2017 Location: AmigaLand Posts: 459	AFAIK Richard Aplin alone did the Atari St, Amiga and Amstrad CPC + deadline pressure. The only one to blame is his boss for not giving him more significant resources.

30 May 2018, 19:56	#16
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,775	Final Fight with sprites the size of Shadow Dancer no thanks I'd like a SE version of Final Fight redone Palette and second button support etc.

31 May 2018, 10:43	#20
mcgeezer Registered User Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Sunderland, England Posts: 2,702	I've never really been a fan of the beat 'em up genre so when Double Dragon and pretty much everything after it came out I was never inspired that much to play them. However there are some notable exceptions such as Mortal Kombat which I loved and played a lot on my SNES, but my all time favourite is Kung Fu Master in the arcades which when I've looked never received an Amiga port! I think I could be inspired enough to code a game based on my love for martial arts movies such as Enter the Dragon, The Raid 1 or 2, Old Boy. I can't think of any decent Kung Fu games on the Amiga that beats Kung Fu master so I might have a pop at that for a short 3 month project... something like "Kung Fu Master - The Upper Floors" could be good. Up for debate, are there any better arcade style games on Amiga that beats Kung Fu master?

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