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Old 20 June 2019, 12:25   #161
DamienD
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Totally agree with everything you've said rsn8887.

It's absolute madness to expect developers to be able to cater for all these non-standard systems
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Old 20 June 2019, 12:51   #162
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Yup, especially when a simple boot without startup can usually solve all problems.
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Old 20 June 2019, 12:55   #163
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Old 20 June 2019, 20:11   #164
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As a developer it's pretty simple to solve this problem.

You simply state what hardware the game has been tested on, if a customer continues to purchase a game that has different hardware then they do so at their own risk.

Of course it's always nice to support as many platforms as possible, but I'll only target what is the classic Amigas, if it works on other variations then it's probably by luck, if it doesn't then it's someone else's job to fix the compatibility issues if they really want to (which contributes to the scene IMHO).
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Old 20 June 2019, 21:43   #165
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I think if there is a target hardware specified, everything is okay.
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Old 20 June 2019, 22:21   #166
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The thing with programming on the Amiga is that, like the PC, there are a lot of variants and it's not that easy to test your software on all of them. For instance, I simply do not have access to a 68060.

So if I want to test if something I make works on the 68060 my only options are either to buy one (out of my budget for the foreseeable future), have someone else test in on their 68060 based machine (which may result in bug reports but still won't help in testing/finding where in the code it'll go wrong) or run the code on WinUAE/FS-UAE and test it there.

I currently opt for the latter one and try to follow 'best practices' as I find them. But this might not always be enough...

Conclusion: it's not that easy to get something to work across the entire Amiga range.
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Old 20 June 2019, 22:43   #167
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Conclusion: it's not that easy to get something to work across the entire Amiga range.
...agreed, and nor should developers be expected to make their game work across the entire range, they just need to state what it does work on.
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Old 20 June 2019, 23:38   #168
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It's absolute madness to expect developers to be able to cater for all these non-standard systems
060 is pretty much standard in A1200 scene since forever.

I agree with rsn8887 though, that there's too much fragmentation. And to try to make your software as compatible as possible, you have to do a simple thing: follow Commodore's guidelines!! Stop killing the system and banging the hardware with questionable routines.
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Old 20 June 2019, 23:48   #169
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Following Commodore's guidelines doesn't fix everything, though it'll obviously help out a lot. However - it will mean that anyone targeting a 'smaller' Amiga will see a significant reduction in abilities of the machine.

Which is probably why it's not normally done, everyone wants the 'best' games and demos and on the low end machines that's pretty much only possible by killing the system as your resources are rather limited to begin with. The OS, while efficient, uses far more resources than some people think (and my experience is that the graphics routines for the OS are not that efficient, which further limits the results).

Anyway, to keep this on-topic: I'd guess this also goes for RESHOOT-R. If it didn't take over the machine at least while it's running, I'd find it unlikely it'd have resulted in the same level of quality.

Edit: on a side-note, killing the OS and using 'questionable routines' are two entirely different things. It's perfectly possible to write extremely poor and questionable code using the OS and programming very elegant and perfectly working routines after having killed the OS
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Old 20 June 2019, 23:55   #170
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... plus where's the fun in using the OS routines, they've probably all been written in C and bloated.

I think I read somewhere in the CD32 dev docs from Commodore that the system uses less than 1% of resources.

Personally, I'd rather have the 1% but more importantly the memory is what I'm after.
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Old 21 June 2019, 00:00   #171
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It all depends on what the OS is doing. If it's not doing anything except 'existing' then perhaps it does only use 1% CPU (though I find that a very low estimate TBH and it definitely uses more RAM than that). But as soon as you do stuff, it goes up extremely quickly.

Try it with the DMA Debugger and cycle exact mode. I did that and found that text entry on an A500 takes something like 25% of a frame per character entered. The OS core is efficient, but the supporting routines seem to be much slower than I'd like.

Anyway, this is getting OT perhaps.
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Old 21 June 2019, 00:30   #172
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Originally Posted by Puggsy View Post
060 is pretty much standard in A1200 scene since forever.
Really? I think most people with an A1200 would have a standard issue or at best 030 / 040 accelerator cards with additional RAM...

I'd imagine in the grand scheme of things, only hardcore hardware freaks wanting to run "non-classic" OS 3.5 / 3.9 / 4x would purchase 060 accelerator cards.

...but what do I know.

Last edited by DamienD; 21 June 2019 at 00:40.
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Old 21 June 2019, 00:47   #173
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If i have to guess: i would say 20-30% have/had 060 CPUs, rest 020-40 CPUs.
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Old 21 June 2019, 00:59   #174
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Exactly my point Retro; hardly standard hardware

...not to mention, I'd imagine funk probably uses OS 3.5 / 3.9 / 4x.

Remember the game was developed for CD32 / standard A1200 but Richard tried to test on most machines.

Again, it's impossible to test on every different type of hardware / OS.

...and as Tsak and vulture have said previously, there is a solution:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsak View Post
Also @funK, you do have workbench access even if you disable the accelerator if you boot with no startup sequence. If you do that you only need to type the location of the game and run the exe.
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Yup, especially when a simple boot without startup can usually solve all problems.

Last edited by DamienD; 21 June 2019 at 01:05.
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Old 21 June 2019, 01:46   #175
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20-30% is hardly "obscure", that's a quarter of the population, and that's a made up number anyway.
060 is the standard in the demoscene.
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Old 21 June 2019, 01:50   #176
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Is this a demo? No, it's a commercial game so what relevance does saying "060 is the standard in the demoscene" have?

Again you're missing the point... this game was designed for a CD32 / standard A1200.

Richard tried to test on most machines but there's no way in the world that he can accommodate all the weird and wonder various Amiga hardware / OS / software patches.
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Old 21 June 2019, 02:32   #177
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I didn't got the point here (sorry). Is it the 060 that Reshoot-R has a "problem" with or with the BlizzardPPC card ?
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Old 21 June 2019, 08:51   #178
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@malko: Seems like this is currently unknown

I think all homebrew Amiga developers would like to fix their games. It just depends how you talk with the dev - calling him or her a lazy cow isn't very helpfull. (at least in most cases) Think about it.
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Old 21 June 2019, 10:11   #179
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I didn't got the point here (sorry). Is it the 060 that Reshoot-R has a "problem" with or with the BlizzardPPC card ?
Try to start the game rebooting without startup-sequence.
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Old 21 June 2019, 11:06   #180
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@malko: Seems like this is currently unknown [...]
OK. So it's still unclear then...

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Originally Posted by Lazycow View Post
[...] I think all homebrew Amiga developers would like to fix their games. It just depends how you talk with the dev - calling him or her a lazy cow isn't very helpfull. (at least in most cases) Think about it.
Not sure if your comment is addressed to me ? Personally I used the word 'coder' so I leave you the authorship of the word 'cow'.
Just in case (regarding post #149) : Allowing a game to be launched from HD and, after a play, forcing a computer reset is, in my point of view, a bad practice. Not saying nor implying anything else, so no need to try to read between the lines.


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Try to start the game rebooting without startup-sequence.
Why do you propose me to do that ? The poor netbook I use for WinUAE is already limit-short for A500 emulation. Do you think I want to try to emulate a BlizzardPPC card ?
You should better ask @funk .
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