Lemon/EAB Super League 2020 -R4- Jump 'N Roll & Wizzy's Quest

[malko]

Lifeschhol, I've thought long and hard about the matter and I've come to the conclusion that :

- given that your interpretation of the use of save state I have made is largely contrary to what I explain in my post, I disagree with what you propose.

- to try to prevent a player from posting a score, for the reasons you have given, especially by knowing that this player was the first to finish the game you mention, is in my opinion, very unfair. Therefore, I will continue to post new scores if I like a game and think I can challenge the score of another participant.

- finally, I understand that there is no point in sharing the testing process I go through in order to find a solution to the crashes I observe during a game, since in the end I get blamed for a so-called bad behaviour.

[JanciB]

Wizzy's Quest : 9,764 = (10 x 1,000) - 236

[john4p]

The problem with this savestate is that, for example, you save at the start of level 43, do a slight mistake while trying to get a lower score, then the game crashes, you reload the savestate, now you don't make the mistake - this would be cheating as you avoided having to play through the 42 levels again.
You're also able to save a ton of time finding new ways to collect less stuff.

This time I have to side with lifeschool here although I'm sure you didn't use savestates to get an advantage but actually wanted to make the HD version work without problems.
I thank you for that effort.

[malko]

In the light of some recent exchanges, including fallacious assertions, I have decided to redirect some priorities.

I would appreciate it if my name, as well as my 2020 scores, could be removed from the scoreboards and, as it is appropriate in such cases, that the person coming after me on the board inherits the position and points I had.

Thanks to all (EAB & Lemon) of those I faced in fair play, round after rounds, and who competed well to produce the best scores .

[john4p]

What an unnecessary mess. I wish the game had never crashed for you.

Savestates are just such a delicate topic that always raise suspicion.
I'm 100% sure you didn't utilize them to gain an advantage.

[lifeschool]

Originally Posted by malko

John also agrees that watching longplay is cheating.

You are the only one pretending that the save state was used to train.

Sure, I am quite disapointed by your attitude and the turn you give to this.

Cheers,
m.

John agrees that using savestates is not the right thing to do in the compo, this has happened with 2 days to go, and we hope you understand why we dont allow use of savestates. We dont ask for hard drive installation, crash reports or bugs reports. If a game a broken then several players will have found it by now. There is no solution to bugs, and we cannot keep updating the ADF unless its an emergency. If you must explore the game then this is all possible after the round.

Watching longplays is not training, it is finding a solution to try and remember. By the time the player gets to that level, they still have to try it themselves and make mistakes, and get to know the level. Watching the longplay of Worthy/Wolfchild before attempting anything is not cheating, as the player still has to perform the tasks, and survive without mistakes, by learning the game.

I try to create the same fair rules for everyone, so that we all play the same. Nobody is doing anything outside of competition tries, and this include bug checking or stress testing the games. Luckily with Winter games, we will allow the practice option, and you can watch longplays all you like.

If you decided to leave the compo, nobody can inherit your position or score, as they didnt earn them. You earned all of your scores so far, so there time to reconsider.

[malko]

Whenever I've seen someone posting a PM, I've always had a mixed feeling about it. Your post of my PM is no exception to that feeling.

Then, if lines are deleted, it must be clearly visible that this was the case, for example by means of "[...]".

For the rest, my opinion has been voiced.

[mihcael]

Save-states are (and for as long as I recall) strictly forbidden.

There was in my opinion, no accusation that you were using save-states to achieve your scores. However, the further testing and bug hunting you performed using savestates should not of occurred during the round and this has the potential to raise questions about your previous submissions.

Originally Posted by malko

...I would appreciate it if my name, as well as my 2020 scores, could be removed from the scoreboards and, as it is appropriate in such cases, that the person coming after me on the board inherits the position and points I had....

Sorry, but I don't think that is necessary. Your scores will stand.

Dont post any further scores for this round, you are absolutely welcome to come back whenever you wish. This is competition is intended to be a bit of fun, I understand if you are no longer feeling that.

Originally Posted by malko

Whenever I've seen someone posting a PM, I've always had a mixed feeling about it. Your post of my PM is no exception to that feeling.

Then, if lines are deleted, it must be clearly visible that this was the case, for example by means of "[...]".

For the rest, my opinion has been voiced.

That is disappointing and should not of occurred.

[john4p]

Here's the vid of the playthrough where I got a score of 4312:

[ Show youtube player ]

At 40:40 I made a mistake - without that the score would've been 4305.
Maybe you can have a look at it and see that I found something that you maybe wouldn't have thought of yourself. Then this round's result wouldn't have been different anyway.

But of course I understand if your motivation to even bother is gone.

[lifeschool]

Originally Posted by malko

Your post of my PM is no exception to that feeling.
If lines are deleted, it must be clearly visible that this was the case, for example by means of "[...]".

Here is my PM to you, highlighting all of my changes. I added the last line (of the reply) responding to your most recent comment, and then added a few more details to the first few lines highlighted below. The rest of the quote is as posted. No lines were removed as you suggest.

Good that you understand the reasoning. John agrees that using savestates is not the right thing to do in the compo, but with only 2 days to go, we hope you wont do this again.
etc. etc

[JanciB]

Wizzy's Quest : 12,661 = (13 x 1,000) - 339

[Harry]

Jump N Roll: 12035

[capehorn]

12,515

[lifeschool]

This Round is Over

Jump N Roll
1 Biscuit
2. john4p
3. arcanist

Wizzys Quest
1 john4p
2. malko
3. LinesMachine

Jaguar XJ220 will be played in the next round.

I've been a little upset recently so havent had the time to compete. Would have been nice to try Jump N Roll this week but very happy to have found Wizzy. Fairs fair, thanks also to goes to malko for discovering how to fix the fonts for us. On to the next round.

[malko]

Originally Posted by john4p

Here's the vid of the playthrough where I got a score of 4312:

[ Show youtube player ]

At 40:40 I made a mistake - without that the score would've been 4305.
Maybe you can have a look at it and see that I found something that you maybe wouldn't have thought of yourself. Then this round's result wouldn't have been different anyway.

But of course I understand if your motivation to even bother is gone.

Thank you John. Effectively, I hadn't the motivation to even bother.

Yesterday evening I forced myself a bit and gave another go to Wizzy's Quest. As I didn't wanted to be influenced by your play, I still haven't watched your video. Only your low score was my base.

After thinking a bit on some levels, I recorded the following go but did a mistake on level 46. As level 46 is a level where you begin by getting a scroll, it was no more possible to have the score I thought I may achieve. So I restarted the record and here is my final result (was late to bed yesterday ).

I have to say that I have beaten your score more than I would have thought : 44 points ...
Without the help of a moderator, you would have had the second place . Anyway, thanks for your positive motivation john .

Now I can watch your video and compare where we have differences.

Wizzy's Quest : 48'732 = (50 x 1'000) - 4'268 + (3 x 1'000)

Here is my longplay : https://mega.nz/#!KeoxFQya!Fq304HW12...fBUxhOUbM92mZE
(it has chapter facility )
By the way, I will not post the animated GIFs (getting all possible gems) I have recorded while testing the crash. No mood to post-process the files.





All the best to everybody for the next rounds.

[john4p]

Excellent vid. Crazy to see so many levels where you had almost completely different strategies. Just shows how great this game is (and Solomon's Key I guess).

I was blind all the time in level 6 where I missed the easy solution to save one green gem. In level 34 you also saved a red gem that I hadn't thought of.

But my solution of the infamous level 43 is better than yours: I took 2 blue gems less.

Finally your level 48 route was superior though.

Thus you'd have deserved to win...wish you had.

[malko]

Originally Posted by john4p

Excellent vid. Crazy to see so many levels where you had almost completely different strategies. Just shows how great this game is (and Solomon's Key I guess). [...]

Yes. Watching your solutions was really instructive as well. Even if at the end we have the same result, the way to achieve it was most of the time different

Originally Posted by john4p

[...] I was blind all the time in level 6 where I missed the easy solution to save one green gem. In level 34 you also saved a red gem that I hadn't thought of.

But my solution of the infamous level 43 is better than yours: I took 2 blue gems less.

Finally your level 48 route was superior though. [...]

On my side regarding your longplay :

24 : Nice idea on how you led the skeleton at the bottom left.
27 & 28 : I think my solution is more easy without the skeletton(s)
29 & 30 : I do like how you handle the brown ball ! Excellent idea to leave it above your head.
36 : Now I understand.
43 : Your idea to miss the rainbow part is just brilliant ! *
44 : You build more block but I think it's safer this way. With my solution you sometimes die due to one of the beholder is not following quickly enough and thus is behaving differently (like on my longplay).
50 : You were not asked for your name... On my side, under emulation, this happens each time I play from the floppy (does it happen on real hardware also ?). As you can see on my video, game played from HD, at the end of the game I am asked for my name for the highscore table .

* If I remember correctly, blue ball is 22 points each. So the less score would be 4'224 (4'268 - 44). If I ever play again for the less score, I will put our two names on the highscore table (but mine first of course) or something like "mjophalonk4" .

Originally Posted by john4p

[...] Thus you'd have deserved to win...wish you had.

It's OK like that even if I will miss the face-off with most of you.

Cheers all

[john4p]

Cheers and thanks for your feedback!

Originally Posted by malko

27 & 28 : I think my solution is more easy without the skeletton(s)

Level 27 definitely your way is better. But for level 28 in that run I just had forgotten to restore this block here:



With this in place it's perfectly safe and fast.

[malko]

^ like this, yes. Without this block it's a task for "Ethan Hawk" (like in your longplay)

[john4p]

Hunt*