25 July 2015, 10:46 | #21 | ||
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"Can you produce this screen for me? if you can Ill buy 10 of them" Quote:
mistake number one when people talk about what some imaginary "new" amiga should be like, to imagine that it will be something amazingly powerful, when the Amiga was never really that, but it was the combination of a sort-of console-like approach applied to a home computer with a multitasking OS... something half-way between the two that gave us the advantages of both. Last edited by Mrs Beanbag; 25 July 2015 at 11:02. |
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25 July 2015, 15:57 | #22 | ||
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The fact is people should let the Amiga die and stop trying to zombify it back into this era and hoping it will be a mindblowing experience. Computing has just changed so much. Not even us, who grew up with these machines, have the same notion of computing, so there is possible no probable way to surprise any of us in the level the Amigas, Ataris or C64s of their time did. Also remember: we were very young and easy to wow and awe, too. As you age, you become a grumpy old naysayer |
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25 July 2015, 16:23 | #23 |
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Yes. Grumpy old naysayer here too.
On to rose-tinted glasses; I sometimes think the previous generations obsession with steam engines is a bit like ours with the Amiga. Steam was dirty, slow and dangerous yet it is romanticised to be much better than the diesel engines that replaced it. |
25 July 2015, 22:46 | #24 |
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Well... i see this everyday in my work - there are few lines of products - two of them use modern SoC and one a bit older (i mean 400MHz so anyway faster than fastest Amiga).
All those 3 products use different software technologies (i mean API's, different Linux versions etc) but they are very similar in terms of customer target. ! platform use a bit outdated (400MHz) STM SoC, second platform fancy crap from Intel (called Groveland) and third modern SoC from Broadcom - (some people already knows what kind of products im describing). So imagine 3 different HW and 3 different SW teams, imagine also now that slowest HW have best feel and look within same GUI (all 3 products looks same from customer perspective), side to this slowest HW have very limited RAM (less than 256MB where other 2 SoC use 1GB of RAM)... So if you asking me if this mean that developers get worst i would answer definitely yes - i blame lack of experience, lack of knowledge as i believe you may be even PhD on some area and on other area you will fail - Amiga have this luck to be designed by people with passion but also with knowledge - personally i believe that with modern HW people just relay on compilers instead creating fast and optimized code and i can even understand this - they just earning money and they think about going fast as possible to home... No passion... I have lot strange discussion such as difference between debug and regular build - most of developers believe that debug is same as non debug and activating debug doesn't disturb anything... Sometimes i giveup... and thats why we cant have decent computer with decent OS (with whole respect to Linux i think this is not good universal OS that can be used from large supercomputer clusters to small embedded system - it simple don't downscale well...). |
25 July 2015, 23:17 | #25 |
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i have encountered this, it's not that they don't care that the code is slow, it's more that they don't seem to have any concept of just how much computing power even a mobile device has these days. i was on a project a couple of years ago, and the client was complaining that something was getting very slow, the original programmer just said "well, that's just how it is, it's only a tablet" or words to that effect...
so the boss put me on that case, and i don't like to blow my own trumpet but, it's fast now. people don't understand how much power computers have these days. they also don't understand algorithmic complexity, and how it matters *more* as computers get better, not less. as the size of data sets increases roughly in proportion to the size of the memory. if the CPU speed doubles, and the memory size doubles, and the dataset doubles, your algorithm had better be O(n log n) at worst or you're in trouble matey. i have worked for a well-known manufacturer of FPGAs and the attitude there wasn't any better. |
25 July 2015, 23:22 | #26 |
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It's not like that all. Computing hasn't changed one bit. It's all just more of the same. Computers today are the same as computers from the 80's. They simply have faster CPUs, better graphics, more RAM, better sound and more storage space. More of the same, and nothing that's actually new.
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25 July 2015, 23:26 | #27 |
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in hardware terms, yes... but in terms of how computers are used, it's vastly different now. multi-processing, networking, security, the cloud...
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26 July 2015, 00:42 | #28 |
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I see what you did there
I meant home computing, and it did change. What you do and expect from a home computer for home use it's totally not the same as 20+ years ago. Probably also in business, as Beanbag says, the way we use and how much we use them has changed a lot. |
26 July 2015, 01:23 | #29 | |
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Only the cloud is new. The others are just more wide spread.
That pun wasn't intended Quote:
In essence it's all exactly the same: People using microcomputers to run the software they want to run. In that sense there may never be anything truly new in computer land. |
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26 July 2015, 07:21 | #30 |
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Hate to say it but the "Cloud" is a "new" twist on the old "off site back-up" speial they have been touting for years. It also brings back main frames and dumb terminals. Since day one, no company wanted anyone to actually have a hard drive, God forbid YOU store something in your computer... But I am OT.
You also have to remember that no big company actually designs and builds computers these days. They assemble parts and sell them for as big as a profit margin they can get away with. Even Apple MIGHT design a case for there stuff, but they are going to intel and getting the cheapest deal they can on off the shelf processors, Motherboards and now GPU's. The Unfortunate truth is the Amiga could never be built in this day and age. To expensive and risk for any company to innovate- unless they are building very small numbers or if you have a cheap build unit like the pie. Just do a search- Companies tried to bring out project boards like the Pie and failed miserly because the corporate mentality, dictated that these devices should have a $50-$100 price point in order to be profitable. They could not believe that the pie will always sell because of the low price point. (both ASUS and MSI tried and failed) |
26 July 2015, 09:50 | #31 |
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The only viable thing Amiga has to offer in the modern world of computing, is the user experience of the OS - graphical interface built into the core of the OS, with screens, windows, gadgets, mouse pointer etc.
I would love to see a modern approach to the AmigaOS - essencially, if anyone was to build an operating system for today, around the same philosophy and ideas that the original Amiga team had - what would it look like? For one, throw out Tripos and replace it with something more akin to CAOS (ie, more "unix like"). Last edited by kolla; 27 July 2015 at 08:03. |
26 July 2015, 13:37 | #32 | ||
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Most of things you listed (security, networking etc) existed (albeit slightly different way) even in late 70's. How this possible that over 100 people providing less efficient code than 10 people even in case that they providing code for HW whic is somwhere between 8 - 12 times faster...? |
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26 July 2015, 15:43 | #33 | |||
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For example if you write a bubble sort, that will be fine if you are sorting maybe 10 or so elements, but if your dataset grows to a million elements it's going to be slow, no matter how much you optimise it. Because it will still be a bubble sort, and a bubble sort has complexity of O(n^2), in other words when the size of the problem doubles it takes four times as long to run. So if your memory size doubles, and your CPU speed doubles, your program is going to be half as fast. This is what happens in the real world. And i have seen people using O(n^2) algorithms, in fact one time i refactored what was i think even an O(n^3) algorithm (i didn't do a proper analysis, it was bad anyway). In the end i got it down to linear time complexity but people were too sceptical that it would actually produce the same result. Quote:
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26 July 2015, 17:55 | #34 | ||
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I believe that nowadays most of code is created in different way and management can be blamed (unrealistic time planning) only partially. Worse - we as a customers accepting this as unavoidable cost of progress... there is general acceptance for low quality code... soon this will be low quality of everything - services, health care etc... Quote:
Nope... there is more than this... but this is another topic - still technology suffer from some limitations that make some things impractical... |
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26 July 2015, 18:16 | #35 | |||
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You seem to be disagreeing with me but i'm not sure exactly what i said that you are disagreeing with.
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Clothes as well, a few wears and it's good for nothing, the stitching is coming out after day 1. We have quantity over quality consumerism. Quote:
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All of the emphasis is on the superficial. But there exist low-power screen technologies, like E-ink. I would buy a phone with some kind of E-ink screen, if i were to buy a phone. Battery life is probably the thing i would care about the most. But i suppose, it is not something you can really show off to people. |
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26 July 2015, 19:13 | #36 | |||
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Currently everyone don't even bother - just suing API, LIB or something similar and ... have no clue how things are done internally... Example: I have smart guys with multiple years programming experience, they coded complex financial application ,databases for very well known software company, they claim that their software works years and years without problem and i believe this can be true, then they trying to do something else... and they capturing PAL (25/50Hz) video with NTSC (30/60Hz) framerate... for me this is clear - you can be good in complex applications for banks but you fail in trivial thing like capture video for further processing... Quote:
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But let ends this complains - for me Amiga was first serious experience with professional video processing - this experience biased my professional life and that's why Amiga is for me something more than just personal computer... |
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26 July 2015, 19:30 | #37 | |
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i only disagreed with you when you said they don't care. i say it is because they just don't know any better. they never had to work with limited resources so they have no appreciation of the power of the resources that they have. I have nothing against building my own furniture. but i don't want to build crap, ugly furniture. If i could save some money buying a flatpack made out of solid wood with proper dovetail joints, i would do that. but low-grade MDF held together with wobbly little clips? don't waste my afternoon. Just got myself a sewing machine. |
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26 July 2015, 20:17 | #38 | |
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26 July 2015, 20:29 | #39 |
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26 July 2015, 21:21 | #40 | |
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Seems it hasn't been touched for 5 years, btw... I think a lot more could be done with a proper (all out) Linux distro that builds something new on top of the kernel rather than just a x window manager? |
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