EAB/Lemon Super League 2019 Round 11: Worthy

[alpine9000]

Originally Posted by malko

Ah ah ... Arrow are there to kill enemies (or hero). One arrow, one kill. Two arrows, two kills. As long as blobs are moving and can be killed, not counting the kills is not a feature in my point of view .

We hear you

I guess I was saying technically it's a "feature" (the ability to set different goals for each enemy type), however I don't think anyone is arguing that it's feature that isn't used well for level 32 (and I think level 37)

I think Tsak mentioned it would be one of the things we'd love to change if we did Worthy again (or an updated version).

[Tsak]

Yup. Btw here's a little more insight on the issue: In stages that have more than one enemy type and allow you to kill less enemies than the max, there isn't any way to tell which enemies the player will eventually kill. And as the badge conditions are preconfigured per enemy type and per level, we simply have to choose. However, since scoring a perfect is only part of the meta-game challenge, this just alters the challenge itself and indeed it was left like that on those levels deliberately (as a variation).

Having said that, I have to also agree that this is an inconsistancy. The player has learned already that he gets points for killing stuff and when you kill as many as the level allows, you also get a badge. I believe that this could have been avoided (or corrected) with a better level design, so that oversight is on me.

[malko]

Originally Posted by alpine9000

[...] (the ability to set different goals for each enemy type) [...]

What you say here is against the spirit of the game. Neither at the start of every level, nor in the right panel (where the time is decrementing, the diamond get counted, available swords, etc...), you have a board indicating what has to be done : kill x red, blue, green, etc. . Thus, while the level is over, arbitrary counting a blob colour instead of another is not correct.

I don't see it as a level design issue. In my perception, counting something is a mathematical stuff (code) (I don't say, nor imply that code is not good, don't misinterpret me )

Originally Posted by alpine9000

[...] I think Tsak mentioned it would be one of the things we'd love to change if we did Worthy again (or an updated version).

You are aware of the issue. This is what is more important .
Now, fix or not, is up to you

By the way, in the meantime you were answering me, have updated my previous post with a new GIF.

Let's continue to play this really cool game !.... but now

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by malko

What you say here is against the spirit of the game. Neither at the start of every level, nor in the right panel (where the time is decrementing, the diamond get counted, available swords, etc...), you have a board indicating what has to be done : kill x red, blue, green, etc. . Thus, while the level is over, arbitrary counting a blob colour instead of another is not correct.

I don't see it as a level design issue. In my perception, counting something is a mathematical stuff (code) (I don't say, nor imply that code is not good, don't misinterpret me )

I think you're missing what Alex means. The way the badges are set and how the enemy kill-count is calculated IS a feature of the game. Good or bad, nobody claims that it couldn't have been handled differently. However by the time the late levels were made, it was already set and done and it would have been counter productive to change the whole system from the ground up, just to accommodate one level and for a fringe case that only affects the meta-game (you lose what, just a handful of points? and besides you already get the conditions for a perfect every time you beat a level, so you still can manage the perfect).

Why I say it is a level design problem, is because we were already aware about the limitations of the system. If f.e. I inserted a bunch of swords at the end, to help you take out all the remeining enemies, the issue would have been recrtified. So you see?

And there's obviously much more to that. With only a single person validifying and playtesting all perfect conditions (that's me) from the tiny playtest team we had available at the moment (which was preoccupied on just finishing the game casually and nailing the bigger issues, bugs and inconsistances) this is what you get -inevitably. If we had a much lager playtest team, as devoted and high skill as you guys, ready to push the game and the design into it's very limits, covering fringe cases like this one and devoting a serious amount of workhours to do that, it would have been a different story.

Well, something to consider about next productions, no?

[malko]

Originally Posted by Tsak

I think you're missing what Alex means. The way the badges are set and how the enemy kill-count is calculated IS a feature of the game. Good or bad, nobody claims that it couldn't have been handled differently. However by the time the late levels were made, it was already set and done and it would have been counter productive to change the whole system from the ground up, just to accommodate one level and for a fringe case that only affects the meta-game (you lose what, just a handful of points? and besides you already get the conditions for a perfect every time you beat a level, so you still can manage the perfect).

Why I say it is a level design problem, is because we were already aware about the limitations of the system. If f.e. I inserted a bunch of swords at the end, to help you take out all the remeining enemies, the issue would have been recrtified. So you see? [...]

I understand it and level 33's count is a good example of how blobs' count is separated. Simply I disagree with the side effect it has on an evident situation in level 32 (because for me, taking care first of the fastest blobs is an evidence ).
Anyway, my comment is not going to change the game as it is now and you already said you will handle things differently in the future .

Originally Posted by Tsak

[...] And there's obviously much more to that. With only a single person validifying and playtesting all perfect conditions (that's me) from the tiny playtest team we had available at the moment (which was preoccupied on just finishing the game casually and nailing the bigger issues, bugs and inconsistances) this is what you get -inevitably. If we had a much lager playtest team, as devoted and high skill as you guys, ready to push the game and the design into it's very limits, covering fringe cases like this one and devoting a serious amount of workhours to do that, it would have been a different story.

Well, something to consider about next productions, no?

Do you mean you are considering to ask us to help you with the testing of "Metro Siege" in a in a forthcoming round ?
All this looks tempting...

To return to Worthy : I now have a recorded GIF of level 33 (meaning that I am now happy with my solution - remaining time about 20 seconds) . Will continue with 34.

By the way, you told us you liked the various posts of solutions so far.
Would be please to have more feedback about them (solved as you were expecting, in a different way, more easy way exists, etc. ?)

[malko]

Level 34 solved - time remaining about 10 seconds .

[alpine9000]

The feedback I can give @malko is you’re a much better player of Worthy than I am

Your solutions are almost always faster than mine, but I did normally stop at any perfect solution I could find.

[malko]

Originally Posted by alpine9000

The feedback I can give @malko is you’re a much better player of Worthy than I am

Your solutions are almost always faster than mine, but I did normally stop at any perfect solution I could find.

It wasn't the kind of feedback I expected , but... from the game's programmer, I take that as a real compliment . So... Thank you .

[malko]

Here is my level 33. As usual, and if possible, I try to take care of the blue blobs first

[malko]

And level 34 :

[linesmachine]

Malko; Watching your completion videos is sort of hypnotic. I've managed to stretch myself to level 30, so I've played this game a lot. But your completions looks so flawless and 'easy'.

On my runs, even in early levels, I sometimes have to repeat manoeuvres, coz, for example luring a red/blue into a green spit zone, doesn't always play out like I'm hoping.

[malko]

When I look at these GIFs, I also sometimes say to myself "it really looks easy" .

However, considering the number of lives I needed to succeed some of these perfect run (finding the right timing, the right positioning, the right sequence of moves), I finally think that the "impression of easy" is largely due to the fact that these GIFs are recorded at 6 fps and that they plays slightly slower than the game is .

Also, today I'm trained. On the other hand, I'm sure that if I leave the game aside for a month and then come back to it, there will be levels where, because my timing will be different, I might think, "but how did I do that?"

[malko]

@linesmachine : your post reminded me this comment from within a game

[malko]

Originally Posted by malko

[...] @tsak& @alpine9000, isn't there any "Ten pints" to train

Looks like it's useful to read Lemon Amiga thread... :

Originally Posted by tsak

[...] - Lastly, regarding accessing the whole game's content, there is a cheat code available anyone can try: make sure you type EGAM (instead of your name) in the Score Screen and every level will be unlocked. This is obviously not a solution to the issues we've been talking above, but at least it is there...well... for anyone NOT feeling 'Worthy' (of course)!

full post: http://www.lemonamiga.com/forum/view...r=asc&start=58

[DamienD]

The cheatcode is also listed on HOL

[malko]

Damn... I should had a look at HOL then
Thanks mate

[malko]

Originally Posted by malko

[...] Edit: at the end of the round, I will post the GIF for level 14 & 24 to compare with you guys

Finally think it's better to post now as "the bread is still baking and hot"
It's the advantage of starting from scratch every time to reach the highest levels. New ideas are coming and sometimes they are good.
Both are 100% safe (but require a small timing placement).

Here is level 14 :



And level 24 :

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by malko

Do you mean you are considering to ask us to help you with the testing of "Metro Siege" in a in a forthcoming round ?
All this looks tempting...

A public contest before the game is actually released is kinda unorthodox -to say the least. But then again, who knows?
On the other hand, if some of you guys would be interested to help, we could arrange to enlist you as possible playtesters

Originally Posted by malko

By the way, you told us you liked the various posts of solutions so far.
Would be please to have more feedback about them (solved as you were expecting, in a different way, more easy way exists, etc. ?)

Sure

-Regarding level 30 I was very pleased by the fact that I saw different and easy to perform solutions. I love both your method and John's, since both seem to include less steps than my solution and better timing. I think yours and (Capehorn's improvement) is the most elegant so far in terms of 'fast and safe' at the same time.

-Regarding 31, the 3 solutions (other than mine) I've see so far (that includes yours, John's and Hipoonios') are all pretty much similar. Actually Alex also found that solution while we were playtesting the game but it was quite hard to perform, so we left it like that. I think in hindsight if I'd redesign the level, I would have made this route even harder/riskier, or cut it off as it completely bypasses the nice level/doors puzzle included.

-Onto level 32, I think we've pretty much covered it. You've already proven you can do both ways with ease (for which I had no doubt), so kudos on that
It's worth noting here that both me and Alex consider this level to be one of the top 5 most difficult/tricky ones in the whole game.

-In level 33 I love how you deal with the blue blobs. Again a quite difficult feat imho. In my solution I charge full on, while shooting all the arrows first (killing the first left blue and 3 reds).

-With level 34 your solution is a lot like mine. However the level can be also solved by completely ignoring the upper two blue blobs, which makes it extremely easier (that's one extra detail in the design that could have been handled better btw).

-Regarding level 24, the way you 'trap' the middle blob is pure genious, love it!
It does make the level a lot safer, but I've been able to score better times with it (while still making all reds go to sleep). Main difference is that I deal with the diamonds in the middle first.

-Lastly regarding level 14, this is definitely the one solution that gives you the best score overal (Hipoonios also uses the same method in his longplay). I always thought that it does require from the player to take a giant leap of faith, because it's quite risky to assume the reds won't follow and trap you. So it requires extreme precision and to be at the right place and the right time (and enemies as well) to pull this off successfully. Personally I preffer the more safe "stealthy" approch: keep the patroling enemies unaware of you, until the left gate is open.

[malko]

@Tsak : If you have time to record your solutions, I will watch them with pleasure

[lifeschool]

I thought it might be great to have a section for posting Worthy solutions on their web site, so people can upload variants for each of the levels. That way the makers of the game can host their own high scoring leaderboard of various solutions.

Sending people to read the Lemon and EAB threads for tips is very long winded when the user must wade through 13 pages (so far) and might not find the tip for their problem, especially when links to content get old or broken.