WinFellow vs WinUAE - Page 3

Sune Salminen · 18 February 2005, 05:16

Thank you Seraph, but the Geforce2Ti is safely tucked away in its box at the moment until I can think of something useful to do with it.

Glad you got WinUAE working!

Chuckles · 18 February 2005, 05:22

Was that 0.8.8 that is running properly for you now, or 0.9.92? If it was the latter, did you have to update drivers to fix the problems?

FallenSeraphin · 18 February 2005, 10:47

The 0.8.88 is working perfect, the 0.9.92 is the same... How's that for programming ? i run exactly the same config on the new and it crashes WinUAE

Chuckles · 18 February 2005, 16:07

I don't think you can really place the blame on WinUAE's shoulders, since the same game works perfectly well for other folks on the latest release. Undoubtedly there is something in your specific blend of hardware and drivers, etc. that is a big factor in the problem. WinUAE 0.8.8 was a much less complete emulation of the Amiga in many respects, though that is irrelevant so long as it works fine for what you're trying to use it for. Due to the fact that it was a less complex version though, it isn't hard to understand how it might not be impacted by whatever is causing the problem for you with the latest version.

As far as programming goes, that's something I know a bit about, having now done it for a living for nearly 30 years. As software evolves and you add new functionality, it is quite common to find that the additions and changes made can cause problems elsewhere that are extremely difficult to reproduce and/or fix. As the complexity of the software increases, the chances of such side effects also increases. Given the complexity of WinUAE at this point, it is a real credit to Toni's skills as a programmer that there are as few problems with the software as there are, and that it works so well for the vast majority of users running on their own unique hardware setups. If you fix everything in your config that was out of whack and you still have issues, it is possible that Toni might take an interest in trying to diagnose the issue, but only if you can provide him with useful information to help narrow down the possible causes. He has done that (and still does) for a lot of us as issues arise with new releases, but he has to have solid info to work with. If your problem comes to his attention and he feels like taking a look at it, he may request that you produce a log file or two to send to him, or something along those lines. If he asks you to do that, please do. The overall quality of WinUAE is directly affected by the level at which we as a community can provide him with useful feedback, and we all benefit from the results over a period of time.

FallenSeraphin · 18 February 2005, 21:11

I hear you and i know ive been overly critic about it, but it just pisses me off seeing 2 programs suposedly the same, 1 working 100% and the other always with glitches ands cracks... We have established that WinFellow is a wiz for slower computers, even in the newer releases (results are there for all to see), and WinUAE is getting permanently "jacked" for faster newer comps... ive taken a quick look at WinUAE code and its not bad at all, its just a pity that seemingly the developer doesnt take the "low-budget" people into account. More options, more speed. Thats why i like WinFellow, it keeps it simple, basic options, excelent performance

isnt there a way to "downgrade" so to say WinUAE so it works with Most low-end pcs ? I love that state saver option, right now its the only thing that draws me to it...

Chuckles · 18 February 2005, 23:16

It might help if you can get past the notion that both programs are supposedly the same, because they aren't. They both have the basic goal of emulating an Amiga, but so far WinFellow doesn't try to go beyond emulating the A500, while WinUAE emulates higher end Amigas, including support for things such as RTG graphics, etc. At some point, WinFellow may reach a state where they're ready to begin adding support for emulation of the later hardware, and once that happens it will inevitably slip some in terms of performance. The "One Great Truth" with regard to all computers is that everything is a tradeoff - you don't get anything for nothing. So if you want to add features, you have to give up something in return, and that is generally performance. So long as your hardware is adequate, you don't notice that a new feature is costing you additional horsepower to make it work, but if your hardware is marginal, the tradeoff starts to show.

As for Toni not taking "low budget" people into account, from what I've seen he does do that a lot more than you might think. When he took over maintenance of WinUAE, it was a lot buggier, had fewer features, and ran slower in many cases (believe it or not). Toni has fixed a lot of inefficiencies in the code to give better performance, when many developers would have just said "buy a faster machine". Still, I'm sure he hears from a lot more people with fast machines who want him to add new features than people with slow machines asking him to make it run faster on them. I'm sure that will become more true all the time, as more and more people upgrade their hardware over time.

As for downgrading WinUAE to get better performance, your best bet is just to use an older version that has fewer features, and no major bugs. If you're the "do it yourself" type, you can always download the latest source code, remove features you don't care about to get a bit more speed out of it, and compile your own custom version. I suspect though that you'd find out in a hurry that it would be a very difficult thing to do without introducing a lot of new bugs in the process. Its a lot easier just to use WinFellow or an older WinUAE version, imho.

The save state feature is the only thing that really attracts you to WinUAE? Interesting, because I think I'd really miss it if it wasn't there, but I still haven't really got around to using it. The one feature in WinUAE that I'd probably miss the most though if it wasn't there is the disk swapper. Now THAT is one nice feature!

FallenSeraphin · 18 February 2005, 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

The save state feature is the only thing that really attracts you to WinUAE? Interesting, because I think I'd really miss it if it wasn't there, but I still haven't really got around to using it. The one feature in WinUAE that I'd probably miss the most though if it wasn't there is the disk swapper. Now THAT is one nice feature!

Have to agree on the disk swapper, very usefull

but are you sure that WinFellow wants to go beyond A500 ? as you've probably noticed about 95% of the "gang" want the amiga for games, and the platform in wich most games run is exactly a500

maybe they dont want to go from there

so far ive seen a lot of tweaking in WinFellow, but is to make it more stable in that config, not enhance it to others like 1200, 2000 or 4000

Chuckles · 19 February 2005, 00:15

No, I don't know for sure that there is any intent to ever push WinFellow beyond A500 emulation, and that was merely speculation on my part. They may not, but if they do then they will have to make some tradeoffs as they go. If they stick with A500 compatability only, then you'll still need to resort to WinUAE if you want to run any of the AGA titles, since they won't run on an A500.

FallenSeraphin · 19 February 2005, 00:19

That would be a nice improvement, actually... I have Civilization and a couple more game for AGA and would love to see them in full glory

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18 February 2005, 05:16	#41
Sune Salminen Dinamáquina Join Date: May 2002 Location: BH/Brasil Age: 49 Posts: 370	Thank you Seraph, but the Geforce2Ti is safely tucked away in its box at the moment until I can think of something useful to do with it. Glad you got WinUAE working!

18 February 2005, 05:22	#42
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 68 Posts: 685	Was that 0.8.8 that is running properly for you now, or 0.9.92? If it was the latter, did you have to update drivers to fix the problems?

18 February 2005, 10:47	#43
FallenSeraphin Amiga Maniac Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portugal Age: 42 Posts: 55	The 0.8.88 is working perfect, the 0.9.92 is the same... How's that for programming ? i run exactly the same config on the new and it crashes WinUAE

18 February 2005, 16:07	#44
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 68 Posts: 685	I don't think you can really place the blame on WinUAE's shoulders, since the same game works perfectly well for other folks on the latest release. Undoubtedly there is something in your specific blend of hardware and drivers, etc. that is a big factor in the problem. WinUAE 0.8.8 was a much less complete emulation of the Amiga in many respects, though that is irrelevant so long as it works fine for what you're trying to use it for. Due to the fact that it was a less complex version though, it isn't hard to understand how it might not be impacted by whatever is causing the problem for you with the latest version. As far as programming goes, that's something I know a bit about, having now done it for a living for nearly 30 years. As software evolves and you add new functionality, it is quite common to find that the additions and changes made can cause problems elsewhere that are extremely difficult to reproduce and/or fix. As the complexity of the software increases, the chances of such side effects also increases. Given the complexity of WinUAE at this point, it is a real credit to Toni's skills as a programmer that there are as few problems with the software as there are, and that it works so well for the vast majority of users running on their own unique hardware setups. If you fix everything in your config that was out of whack and you still have issues, it is possible that Toni might take an interest in trying to diagnose the issue, but only if you can provide him with useful information to help narrow down the possible causes. He has done that (and still does) for a lot of us as issues arise with new releases, but he has to have solid info to work with. If your problem comes to his attention and he feels like taking a look at it, he may request that you produce a log file or two to send to him, or something along those lines. If he asks you to do that, please do. The overall quality of WinUAE is directly affected by the level at which we as a community can provide him with useful feedback, and we all benefit from the results over a period of time.

18 February 2005, 21:11	#45
FallenSeraphin Amiga Maniac Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portugal Age: 42 Posts: 55	I hear you and i know ive been overly critic about it, but it just pisses me off seeing 2 programs suposedly the same, 1 working 100% and the other always with glitches ands cracks... We have established that WinFellow is a wiz for slower computers, even in the newer releases (results are there for all to see), and WinUAE is getting permanently "jacked" for faster newer comps... ive taken a quick look at WinUAE code and its not bad at all, its just a pity that seemingly the developer doesnt take the "low-budget" people into account. More options, more speed. Thats why i like WinFellow, it keeps it simple, basic options, excelent performance isnt there a way to "downgrade" so to say WinUAE so it works with Most low-end pcs ? I love that state saver option, right now its the only thing that draws me to it...

18 February 2005, 23:16	#46
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 68 Posts: 685	It might help if you can get past the notion that both programs are supposedly the same, because they aren't. They both have the basic goal of emulating an Amiga, but so far WinFellow doesn't try to go beyond emulating the A500, while WinUAE emulates higher end Amigas, including support for things such as RTG graphics, etc. At some point, WinFellow may reach a state where they're ready to begin adding support for emulation of the later hardware, and once that happens it will inevitably slip some in terms of performance. The "One Great Truth" with regard to all computers is that everything is a tradeoff - you don't get anything for nothing. So if you want to add features, you have to give up something in return, and that is generally performance. So long as your hardware is adequate, you don't notice that a new feature is costing you additional horsepower to make it work, but if your hardware is marginal, the tradeoff starts to show. As for Toni not taking "low budget" people into account, from what I've seen he does do that a lot more than you might think. When he took over maintenance of WinUAE, it was a lot buggier, had fewer features, and ran slower in many cases (believe it or not). Toni has fixed a lot of inefficiencies in the code to give better performance, when many developers would have just said "buy a faster machine". Still, I'm sure he hears from a lot more people with fast machines who want him to add new features than people with slow machines asking him to make it run faster on them. I'm sure that will become more true all the time, as more and more people upgrade their hardware over time. As for downgrading WinUAE to get better performance, your best bet is just to use an older version that has fewer features, and no major bugs. If you're the "do it yourself" type, you can always download the latest source code, remove features you don't care about to get a bit more speed out of it, and compile your own custom version. I suspect though that you'd find out in a hurry that it would be a very difficult thing to do without introducing a lot of new bugs in the process. Its a lot easier just to use WinFellow or an older WinUAE version, imho. The save state feature is the only thing that really attracts you to WinUAE? Interesting, because I think I'd really miss it if it wasn't there, but I still haven't really got around to using it. The one feature in WinUAE that I'd probably miss the most though if it wasn't there is the disk swapper. Now THAT is one nice feature!

19 February 2005, 00:15	#48
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 68 Posts: 685	No, I don't know for sure that there is any intent to ever push WinFellow beyond A500 emulation, and that was merely speculation on my part. They may not, but if they do then they will have to make some tradeoffs as they go. If they stick with A500 compatability only, then you'll still need to resort to WinUAE if you want to run any of the AGA titles, since they won't run on an A500.

19 February 2005, 00:19	#49
FallenSeraphin Amiga Maniac Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portugal Age: 42 Posts: 55	That would be a nice improvement, actually... I have Civilization and a couple more game for AGA and would love to see them in full glory

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